Ep047: Business Negotiation Tips from an FBI Hostage Negotiator with Chris Voss

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TalentGrow Show ep047 Chris Voss Business Negotiation Tips from an FBI hostage negotiator with host Halelly Azulay

What can you learn from a hostage negotiator about your own day-to-day negotiations? A lot. My guest, Chris Voss, co-author of the national business best-seller Never Split the Difference, is a negotiation consultant and award-winning business school professor. After 24 years as an FBI hostage negotiator, Chris founded The Black Swan Group, a firm that solves business communication problems with hostage negotiation strategies. And he’s a funny guy who gets me giggling throughout this episode as we discuss some pretty counterintuitive negotiation tips Chris suggests based on his vast hostage negotiation experience, all of which you can immediately apply to your daily negotiations in business and in life to see a positive impact on your negotiation results. Learn about why Chris says the word “Yes” is useless, the word “No” is freeing, and the phrase “You’re right!” is the kiss of death. Get actionable advice and then apply it and become a master negotiator!

What you’ll learn:

Listen to Stitcher
  • Chris tells the story of being a frog in a small town (2:50)
  • What’s the most counterintuitive advice from the world of hostage negotiations that can apply to YOUR workplace negotiations? (Hint: it’s about a word Chris says is totally useless!) (7:05)
  • Plus – listen to Chris’s cheering section explode in applause and surprise both of us (7:57)
  • “You’re right” is the kiss of death [HEY! THAT'S TWEETABLE] – why? What do we want instead for a breakthrough moment? (9:25)
  • We should actually seek to hear “No” – Chris says we’ve become a hostage of ‘No’ (11:27)
  • What is better than asking someone “Do you have a few minutes to talk?” when you call them that will give you a MUCH better result getting anyone to give you their complete and undivided attention! (12:35)
  • How to switch nearly every ‘Yes’ question to a ‘No’ question and get better results (13:23)
  • What’s the ‘yes-trapping’ behavior that makes us all like battered children? (13:49)
  • Why you should ask “Have you given up on this project?”, and when is the best time to use this question? And what’s your next move? (14:37)
  • How is it helpful to ‘summarize the negatives’ to show appreciation, respect, credibility and fearlessness? (15:55)
  • People are much more eager to follow someone who is fearless (17:05)
  • Why you should try to get ‘No’, but let out ‘No’ a little at a time. Chris demonstrates both the language and the tone you could use instead of saying ‘No’. It works for both 13 year olds and home improvement contractors (and everyone in between)… (17:43)
  • What to do if you’re worried about losing control of your own emotions during a high-stakes negotiation? Chris suggests a double-strategy that hostage negotiators use (but what does late night radio have to do with it?) (19:50)
  • What’s the only way for any of us to actually know if any of Chris’ advice works? (23:25)
  • What’s the simple, actionable parting advice Chris gives that can help you become a better negotiator, but it would actually make the world better if all of us applied it more (25:39)
  • “Every negotiation, every conversation, every moment of life, is a series of small conflicts that, managed well, can rise to creative beauty.” Amen! (26:35)

Resources

About Chris Voss

Chris Voss is the Founder and CEO of the Black Swan Group Ltd and author of Never Split The Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It. He has used his many years of experience in international crisis and high-stakes negotiations to develop a unique program and team that applies these globally proven techniques to the business world.

Prior to 2008, Chris was the lead international kidnapping negotiator for the Federal Bureau of Investigation, as well as the FBI’s hostage negotiation representative for the National Security Council’s Hostage Working Group. During his government career, he also represented the U.S. Government at two (2) international conferences sponsored by the G-8 as an expert in kidnapping. Prior to becoming the FBI lead international kidnapping negotiator, Christopher served as the lead Crisis Negotiator for the New York City Division of the FBI. Christopher was a member of the New York City Joint Terrorist Task Force for 14 years.  He was the case agent on such cases as TERRSTOP (the Blind Sheikh Case – Sheikh Omar Abdel-Rahman), the TWA Flight 800 catastrophe and negotiated the surrender of the first hostage taker to give up in the Chase Manhattan bank robbery hostage taking.

During Chris’s 24 year tenure in the Bureau, he was trained in the art of negotiation by not only the FBI but Scotland Yard and Harvard Law School. He is also a recipient of the Attorney General’s Award for Excellence in Law Enforcement and the FBI Agents Association Award for Distinguished and Exemplary Service.

Chris currently teaches business negotiation in the MBA program as an adjunct professor at University of Southern California’s Marshall School of Business and at Georgetown University’s McDonough School of Business.  He has taught business negotiation at Harvard University, guest lectured at The Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University, The IMD Business School in Lausanne, Switzerland and The Goethe School of Business in Frankfurt, Germany. Since 2009 Christopher has also worked with Insite Security as their Managing Director of the Kidnapping Resolution Practice.

Transcript

Announcer: Welcome to the TalentGrow Show, where you can get actionable results-oriented insight and advice on how to take your leadership, communication and people skills to the next level and become the kind of leader people want to follow. And now, your host and leadership development strategist, Halelly Azulay.

Halelly: Welcome back to the TalentGrow Show. I’m Halelly Azulay, your leadership development strategist. Before I introduce today’s guest, I wanted to be sure that you got the news that we have a brand new community page on Facebook. I want to make sure that you join us. This is a private group. It’s for you, the TalentGrowers community of listeners and it’s there to serve as a gathering place to share insights, give and get advice, and generally be in a supportive environment with other people who are interested in taking their leadership game to the next level – like you. We would love to have you join us. Search for TalentGrowers community on Facebook and ask to join. I’ll approve you and then introduce yourself and get the conversation flowing. I can’t wait to see you there.

But first, I can’t wait for you to hear this great show I have for you today. My guest is Chris Voss, co-author of the national business bestseller Never Split the Difference. Chris is a negotiations consultant and an award winning business school professor. After 24 years as an FBI hostage negotiator, Chris founded the Black Swan Group, a firm that solves business communication problems with hostage negotiation strategies. And he’s a very funny guy. He gets me giggling through this entire episode, I think he will get you laughing too. But we discuss some pretty counterintuitive negotiation tips that Chris suggests, based on his vast hostage negotiation experience that you can immediately apply to your daily negotiations in business and in life to see a positive impact in your negotiation results. Without further ado, here we go, Chris Voss on the TalentGrow Show.

I’m Halelly Azulay, your leadership development strategist, here with negotiations expert and bestselling author Chris Voss. Chris, welcome to the TalentGrow Show.

Chris: Thank you very much. An absolute pleasure to be here.

Halelly: I’m happy that you’re here, and I cannot wait to get into everything that you have to share about your experience and knowledge about negotiations. It’s a topic that comes up a lot in my work. Before we do, I always like to get my guests to encapsulate their entire career in a couple of minutes. That’s the hardest part of this interview. After that everything will probably be easy. But where have you been, how did you get to where you are today?

Chris: Well, once upon a time, a long time ago, I was a frog if you will. No one ever kissed me and turned me into a handsome prince, but I grew up in a small town in Iowa, very small town. My town, how small was it? My town was so small we did have six traffic lights in our local area – we were kind of big, with six lights. That’s a big deal from my part of the world. But that’s where I grew up, small town Midwestern guy. Then sort of bounced, ricocheted Kansas City, Pittsburgh, New York, Washington, D.C., Boston, Washington again, almost all those ricochets were with the FBI. Kansas City was KCMOPD. I was a cop in Kansas City. The next thing I knew, I found myself doing international kidnapping negotiations with the FBI.

I was lucky enough, I did an interview – it was back for a high school reunion, I graduated from high school 6,000 years ago – and was back for a high school reunion in my hometown two summers ago and I did an interview with my hometown paper. This is how big my town was. Our newspaper came out everyday. So I was flattered to get to do this interview and the editor said, “My God. Mt. Pleasant, Iowa, to New York City, joint terrorist task force, FBI? How did you get there?” And I just thought about all the different places, the side trips I’d taken and I said, “Well, you go up to I-80 and you make a right.” I don’t know that I can do a better job explaining it than that.

Halelly: So you were with the FBI 24 years and then where are you now? What are you doing now? How did you get from there to here?

Chris: Well, I got this crazy idea that hostage negotiation could apply to business and personal negotiations and test drove the concept at Harvard Law School and worked out there and taught there. Started teaching in two different business schools at Georgetown University in D.C. and now at the University of Southern California here in L.A., and then wrote a book, Never Split the Difference. Came out this past May and has been really well received. The kind of stuff we hear about the book is exactly what I think any author wants to hear is that counterintuitive, easy-to-read, applicable skills. Stuff that I never thought of that make a big difference. People are making huge differences. These hostage negotiation ideas are very counterintuitive. You don’t have to be Einstein to apply this. You do not have to have a PhD. You don’t need to be a Nobel Prize winner. Regular people can apply this stuff and have it make huge differences. We literally, from negotiations with a 13-year-old son who wants a video game to a contractor that’s asking for too much.

Halelly: That is so rewarding, when people tell you that your book made a difference in their life.

Chris: Yeah. I don’t think I could have asked for anything more. I really, really, it makes me very happy. I like to help people get better at whatever they’re doing.

Halelly: That’s awesome. Well, we look forward to you helping us. Everybody, definitely you need to get this book. It is a great book. There are nine different principles and lots of tactics and strategies and a lot of really cool stories. I love the prepare negotiation one sheet in the back, there is an appendix, and it just takes you step by step through how you can prepare for negotiation. That’s not the only thing, but I really like actionable things like that. We’re going to make a link to the listeners of this show that are most likely not negotiating about life or death situations, like you are in hostage negotiations. So what do you think are some of the most counterintuitive advice that you’ve brought from the world of hostage negotiations into the world of business negotiations?

Chris: You know, I think the biggest one is “yes” is a useless word. People are so in love with yes. When I was working on the book, I can remember I worked with four different authors and the third guy wrote the book proposal and the fourth guy, Tahl Raz, wrote the book and Tahl is a flipping genius. This is not the first great business negotiation book he’s been involved in. That’s why I got him, because he had been the architect, the co-writer of another book, Never Eat Alone.

Halelly: Right, Keith Ferrazzi.

Chris: Yeah, which just blew me away. It blew me away at how readable it was. If I want to make a book that was that easy to read and enjoyable to read, I finally got Tahl. The guy that I worked with earlier that helped me with the proposal, we were sitting around talking one day and he said, “It’s this issue of yes. What’s the problem with yes?” One of the writers said, “Chris, as a hostage negotiator, how did you get people to say yes?” It was the only question that just every thoroughly stumped me. It’s such a useless word that hostage negotiators don’t even bother with. It doesn't have anything to do, really, with agreement. Most of the time yes is fake agreement. Yes by itself means nothing. It’s usually “Yes, and” or “Yes, or” or “Yes, but” and everything that comes after the word after yes is what you’re after. What comes after the word and, after the word but? That makes or breaks your deal. And “Yes, but” is something we hear more than anything else in our lives. But is an erasing word which made that yes in the first place useless. A fake agreement also masquerades under two different common phrases – maybe is a horrible word, and also you’re right is awful. You’re right is worse than death. You’re right is a kiss of death. You’re right is when somebody is really saying to, “Look, I still like you, I want to maintain this relationship, but please stop.”

Halelly: You’re right is the kiss of death. That’s a tweetable! So say more. What do we want instead of yes and instead of you’re right?

Chris: First of all, that’s right is the epiphany moment. That’s right is a breakthrough moment when the other person says, “That’s right.” It’s what you say when you’re all in, when you completely and totally believe in what the other person has just said. Anybody who listens to your podcast, you’re probably either a Trump fan or a Hillary fan in the last Presidential election. So when you were watching them debate, when one of the candidates you liked said something that you thoroughly agreed with, you looked at the TV and you pointed to your family and said, “That’s right.” You didn’t look at the TV and say, “You’re right,” you said, “That’s right.” That’s what people say when they believe they have heard the complete and indisputable truth. Indisputable. Also, when someone says, “You’re right,” to us, or when someone says, “That’s right,” to us, we’re actually implementing the age old advice we got from Steven Covey when Covey said seek first to understand, then be understood. To know when you understand the other person, they will tell you by looking at you and saying, “That’s right.” That’s also they’re confirming without also knowing it is that they feel bonded to you. They feel empathy with you. At that empathy moment, we’re then ready to proceed and that’s why it’s so powerful.

Halelly: I definitely want to talk to you more about empathy. But let’s talk a little more about no, since you raised it. I mean, yes, and no. So, you have a chapter in the book about no and how we should actually seek no instead of seeking yes, and that’s of course definitely against all of the age old advice. I mean, Getting to Yes is the name of a classic book by Ury and Fisher, and so why no?

Chris: And they even wrote another book called Getting Past No, as if no was this horrible thing. So these two books have made everyone who has read them the hostage of no, or the hostage of yes, because you so desire yes, you’re a hostage, or you’re so afraid, horrified by no. Here’s what happens when people say no. No is protection. When you’ve just protected yourself, you relax, you actually listen more closely. No is empowering. When you say no you feel more powerful. We begin to discover, we kind of stumbled over this toward the tail end of my hostage negotiation career and we started to experiment with it in our laboratory – which is the world – since. We found that asking someone, like when I call people on the phone I don’t say, “Do you have a few minutes to talk?” I say, “Is now a bad time to talk?” Those are two completely different answers. When I ask someone, “Is now a bad time to talk?” I only get one of two answers. They either hesitate for half a second and say, “No. It’s never a bad time to talk to you.” And for the next, at least the next 15 seconds, I have their complete and undivided attention. Those are 15 golden moments that are very difficult to get. The other answer people get will say, “Yeah, it is a bad time, but I’ve got time at 2:00 tomorrow.” They will always volunteer a better time. So I just got my goal anyway, I’ve just got to wait until the appointment that they gave me.

That’s one example, and then nearly any yes question can be switched to a no by putting – is it ridiculous, is it impossible, in front of it. Is it a ridiculous idea for Chris Voss to be on a podcast? Well, no. I’d love to do that. We’ve actually found a lot of people, because people used to, others try to drag yes out of them. There’s this whole yes momentum, yes trapping behavior, that’s got everyone gun-shy of yes, saying yes. It’s like where everybody is a battered child. If I said to you, “Do you want to make more money?” you know I’m going someplace with that.

Halelly: So we feel like we’re being manipulated because it’s happened so many times?

Chris: Exactly. And we duck. We shy. Some battered child, someone tries to give them a hug, they still duck, even though the hug was well intentioned. Even if you’re well intentioned in trying to seek your yes, somebody else has already battered them, and regardless of your intention, they’re going to duck. They’re gong to be worried. So no takes us immediately out of that dynamic. It’s a real way to trigger really quick responses from people. I’ll tell you another one we like an awful lot. Asking the question, “Have you given up on this project?” That gets quick response.

Halelly: When do you ask that?

Chris: The perfect context for that is when someone has gone silent on you. If you’re having trouble getting somebody to respond, they’re not responding to emails, text messages, not returning your calls, when someone goes silent on you they’re telling you two things. They still like you, because if they didn’t, they’d tell you. They’re hoping that something will work out, but hope is not a strategy and so they don’t have anything beyond hope. And they’re also telling you that your approach up until now has failed. If it worked, they’d be talking to you. So they’re implicitly telling you that you’re failing with them. And how you open it back up is, “Have you given up on this project?” Have you given up on whatever it might be? I originally got this structure for this specific question from someone who was doing fundraising for Republicans. They’ll respond, but in the next moment, you have to interact with them differently, what you have up until that time, and what you probably really need to do is get a “that’s right” out of them. Summarize the situation from their perspective and summarize the negatives that they feel about it and do not proceed. The negatives that they feel have to be part of it. “It seems like I’ve been unfair to you. It seems like I haven’t been listening to you. It seems like you put a lot of effort into this up until now and your effort has been fruitless and I just haven’t been cooperating.” If you can summarize that, they will open up to you in ways that you’ve never heard or seen before.

Halelly: That’s great advice. What I’m hear is when you feel like things are not going as well as you would like, if you can summarize the negatives, actually, you’re showing that you’re listening. You’re showing that you are abreast and aware of what’s going on, and that you can see things from their perspective, which is empathy. And you’re phrasing it in a way where you’re giving them, like they don’t have to prove it to you anymore because you’ve got it.

Chris: Right. It shows a deep appreciation and respect for their position. It gives you great credibility and it actually shows great fearlessness on your part. If you are fearless with them, it’s easier for them to have much more faith in you because you’re fearless and you have this credibility.

Halelly: Does it give you the leverage too, because you’re fearless? Like you have less to lose?

Chris: It’s an interesting question. I think it does on some levels, because of just the much stronger position you have with them in terms of credibility and people are much more eager to follow somebody who is fearless.

Halelly: Cool. And then you advocate that we try to get the answer “no” out of our negotiation counterpart, but you also say that we should avoid saying no.

Chris: I like to teach people to let out no a little at a time. There’s ways to slowly back into it, to indicate that you want to continue to collaborate, but you’re trying to indicate that you have problems. Like the first best way to say no is, and it has to be said properly. How do you say it? You have to say it differentially. You have to say, “How am I supposed to do that?” And in that tone of voice. Like you’re asking for help? That communicates a desire to cooperate, but a real problem with a particular path being proposed. The thing that I talked about earlier that works with both 13-year-olds and contractors is that exact phrase. It’s one of the most universal effective ways to say no that we have. It works magnificently. It’ll take care of 75 percent of your problems.

Halelly: All right, everybody, are you listening? Memorizing this one? "How am I supposed to do that?"

Chris: How am I supposed to do that? It’s a great answer. Two examples, and the person on the other side did exactly the same thing. A woman’s 13-year-old son is trying to get her to buy a video game. He wants her to pay the whole thing. And she looks at him and says, “How am I supposed to do that?” And he says, “All right mom, I’ll pay half.” Immediately. Immediately he drops his position by 50 percent. A businessman friend of mine here in Los Angeles, he’s got a contractor that’s working for his business and the guy is giving him a price for work and he looks at him and says, “How am I supposed to do that?” And the contractor cut his price by half.

Halelly: Wow. There’s a lot to be gained from that one sentence.

Chris: Contractors and 13-year-old kids are pretty much the same thing, eh?

Halelly: And hostage holders. So, let’s talk about the role of emotions. What I’m really curious about is obviously to be good communicators, we need to be able to read the other person’s emotions and not to ignore them. But I know that a lot of the people that I talk to about negotiations are really worried about being in control of their own emotions, especially if the other side is, let’s say if they’re being unforthcoming, or if they say something that seems ludicrous to you. Or if you have a lot on the line, you’re asking for a raise or you might be leaving the job or you’re asking for a promotion or something like this, there are so many emotions that you have attached to the outcome, so it’s really hard to stay calm and obviously to become emotional is not going to be very helpful. What do you suggest?

Chris: You know, that’s kind of a double strategy and it’s exactly what hostage negotiators do to keep themselves under control. The first strategy is there’s a compartmentalization that goes on in the brain when you start really trying hard to see the other person’s perspective and their emotions. The more time you think on like, “What are they thinking in this situation?” They might be worried about losing me, like if I leave, I leave a position that’s open, they have to be concerned about who could do my work. They have to be concerned about filling my role. The more, your emotions get compartmentalized and out of the way as soon as you start working on picking up the other side’s emotions. It’s kind of this automatic thing that happens in the brain. So as soon as you switch your empathy switch on, your own chaotic emotions get dialed down immediately.

Then at the same time, hostage negotiators talk to you, and contentious negotiations, what we refer to as the late night FM deejay voice. And the magic of that voice is its sound calms both them and you. Because when your voice, when you use that voice, your voice goes out into the air and part of it makes a loop and comes back in your brain. And it hits a portion of your brain called mirror neurons and it creates this virtuous cycle of calming you down. So if you can get control of your own voice, as soon as you do, you calm down also. Everybody wake up, going to count to three – go out and buy my book!

Halelly: Wow. I can’t wait to try that. I have to say it sounds like it could either work magnificently or the cynic in my head is the other person is going to thing something is wrong with you. Why are you talking like that?

Chris: Yeah, and you know, that’s the cool thing about it because I do this all the time. I get this exercise called 60 seconds or she dies, and I’m the hostage taker and you’re the hostage negotiator and I say to you, “You need to call in 60 seconds or she dies.” When I do that, through the course of that role play, I use a voice that gets them really combative. I become very argumentative with them, very direct and blunt. Blunt force trauma voice. And then I will switch to the late night FM deejay voice and immediately calm people down. I enjoy using this voice. I test drive it all the time to prove to myself over and over and over again that it works. And that’s the only way for any of your listeners to actually find out about any of this is to try it themselves! See if it works.

Halelly: Absolutely. You’re giving things that are really not that hard to try. This is not rocket science, but it can make a huge difference, so I love it, how actionable it is. What’s really exciting now for you? Do you have any new projects, new discoveries that are on your horizon and energizing you?

Chris: You know, we’re getting the book out to more and more people, and I’m getting the biggest charge out of that. I think I like to keep track of how many people go to Amazon and rate it. The Amazon rates are through the roof. We just want to get it, I speak at conference. I’m spreading the gospel, if you will. So this is a lot of fun and a lot of fun I’m having on the feedback we’re getting from people who have found the book and I hear through the grapevine, like everywhere. I recently heard, and I can’t name him because he hasn’t told me this himself, but one of the rock star negotiation instructors at Harvard Business School, and this was recently passed to me, a guy that I admire greatly, that he thinks the book really breaks ground. So hearing back from people that I admire that they think the book makes a contribution is really cool too.

Halelly: Wow. Of course the Harvard model is that quintessential model that people teach from about negotiations, so to have it from sort of the mecca that is, is meaningful. Congratulations to you, that’s great.

Chris: I was really happy to hear that.

Halelly: So before we wrap up, we always make sure that we give our listeners a really actionable advice. Something that they can apply right away – and I think you already have – but what would you say is something that people can apply today, tomorrow, right away, in their life and their role, whatever role they want to, that can make them better negotiators?

Chris: Make it a point to hear the other side out, and get a “that’s right” out of them before you make your point. How do you action the advice that Steven Covey – seek first to understand, then be understood – how do we do that? I want people to action that by first let the other side talk. Go silent instead of making your point. Let them have their say and do the best you can to get a “that’s right” out of them. You’ll find you get to agreement much more quickly. It’s a delay that saves time. But let the other side have their say first. See what happens.

Halelly: If more people did that in this world, in general, what a better world it would be right? We would have less conflict and more people being able to see eye to eye.

Chris: Yeah, we really would. We’d save a lot of time too. We’d save all that arguing time.

Halelly: For sure. There’s a quote I really liked in your book, it says, “Every negotiation, every conversation, every moment of life is a series of small conflicts that, managed well, can rise to creative beauty. Embrace them.” That’s beautiful.

Chris: Yes. Amen.

Halelly: Amen to that. I really appreciate everything that you’ve shared with us today, Chris, and your book is fabulous and I definitely think it should be on every business person’s shelf, because negotiations are in your world whether you like them or not, all around you, and as you mentioned, if you have kids or no kids, you already know that they begin to practice negotiations from the moment that they can assert themselves. So all of us are in places where we could get better outcomes, both for us and the other person, and for the world, if we could do negotiations more masterfully, more effectively. How can people stay in touch with you, learn more about you and communicate with you if they want to?

Chris: Okay, sure. I’m going to mention three quick things, and just as a reminder that the book’s title is Never Split the Difference, and you buy it at a bunch of places. Amazon still has the best price. Our website is BlackSwanLTD.com. And we’ve got a lot of different ways to help people get better at negotiations. We’ve got some free stuff there. Free, if it’s free I’ll take three, as an old friend of mine used to say. We’ve got free tools for you and one of those tools is this once a week negotiation newsletter we put out called The Edge, and the easiest way to subscribe to The Edge is a complimentary subscription, if you text the words “thatsright,” no punctuation, no spaces, just “thatsright,” again, no punctuation and no spaces, text “thatsright” to the number 22828, again, that’s 22828, you can sign up for the complimentary newsletter and become a black swan.

Halelly: I love that. So all right. You’ve got a lot of actions, folks, that you can take, but I would say if you even just take one of them, you’re going to be ahead. Thank you Chris, I appreciate your wisdom. We appreciate your time and thank you for sharing that with the TalentGrowers community here.

Chris: This is fun. I’m privileged to be on with you, thank you.

Halelly: You didn’t know we were going to change the world with this podcast episode, right? But here we are. I hope you take the actions that Chris suggests as soon as possible. I want you to go to our Facebook group, join us if you haven’t already, and then write down one action that you took as a result of this show and the results that you saw. Or, if you prefer, tell us about an upcoming negotiation that you’re kind of nervous about and let us help you prepare. We are the TalentGrowers, and together we can all rise. Did you hear the news?

The TalentGrow Show podcast – that’s this podcast – has been selected to be a showcase podcast on the C-Suite radio network, the premiere source for the world’s leading business podcasts. For C-Suite leaders, business executives and entrepreneurs. C-Suite radio features premium content from top thought leaders, designed to increase knowledge, deepen understanding and build skills to enhance listener’s personal and professional lives. I’m really proud to be part of that network, to have been selected, so go to C-Suiteradio.com and you can see my show there as well as all the other great business podcasts that are featured on that network.

I’m Halelly Azulay, your leadership development strategist. Thank you for listening today. I appreciate you. And as always, until the next time, make today great. Bye.

Announcer: Thanks for listening to the TalentGrow Show, where we help you develop your talent to become the kind of leader that people want to follow. For more information, visit TalentGrow.com.

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