Ep062: The 6 ways of rethinking career mobility—why up is not the only way with Beverly Kaye

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Ep062 the 6 ways of rethinking career mobility why up is not the only way with Dr Beverly Kaye on TalentGrow Show podcast Halelly Azulay
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In this episode of the TalentGrow Show with Halelly Azulay, career development and employee engagement expert and co-author of Up Is Not The Only Way: Rethinking Career Mobility Dr. Beverly Kaye helps us think about career mobility in a much broader and more advantageous way. She explains what the six categories of experience are that can help us rethink mobility, what she thinks are two important ways that organizations can prepare individuals for upward moves, why organizations need to start finding more ways to sell lateral moves, and much more! Bev’s wisdom comes from four decades of research and experience. Listen now!

Listen to Stitcher

WHAT YOU’LL LEARN:

  • How does Beverly redefine the meaning of career mobility? (4:35)
  • What’s one of the toughest conversations managers have to have with their employees? What makes it so tough? (5:33)
  • At a certain point through the writing of her latest book, Beverly’s publishers said “No, no, no, no…”. What did they want her to change? (hint: she took their advice, and the book is better for it) (6:07)
  • What’s a positive trend Beverly has noticed about the relationship between managers and individuals nowadays? (6:39)
  • Beverly explains why managers need to widen the net of who they think of as ‘talent’ (8:01)
  • Whenever organizations say “We want ___________ for _________, Beverly smiles. (8:39)
  • What are the 6 categories of experience that can help people with thinking about their career mobility? (8:56)
  • What idea of Edward de Bono’s did Beverly and her co-authors follow to make the points in their book more powerful? (10:01)
  • “Grow here”: Beverly explains why “you don’t need to change jobs to grow”, why “growth is right in front of your eyes”, and why “growth is mandatory” (10:38)
  • Halelly comments on the difference between being “employed” and being “employable” (13:49)
  • Beverly shares some easy questions you can ask yourself to help you “grow here” (14:41)
  • Beverly explains what she means by “try before you buy” (15:37)
  • What practice are organizations on the “cutting edge” starting to do? (18:32)
  • What does Beverly mean by lateral moves? Why does she think these could become as big as vertical moves? (19:01)
  • Why Beverly thinks organizations need to find more ways to sell lateral movement (20:17)
  • Beverly explains the meaning of her realignment injunction: “Step back for a reason or a season” (21:58)
  • “When up IS the way”: What are the 2 ways organizations need to prepare individuals for vertical moves? (24:11)
  • What’s something that Beverly feels leaders and managers don’t do enough of? (25:28)
  • “The grass isn’t always greener”: Beverly talks about “elegant exits” and “respectful returns” (important stuff for managers and leaders here!) (27:58)
  • What’s Beverly’s actionable tip? (all you need for this one is a pen and paper. You should definitely give it a try!) (32:07)

RESOURCES

ABOUT BEVERLY KAYE:

Author, Speaker, and Founder, Career Systems International, Dr. Beverly Kaye is an international bestselling author and leading authority on career issues and retention and engagement in the workplace. She has dedicated her life’s work to helping individuals and organizations grow in a workplace that fosters greater commitment, fulfillment, and humanity.

A sought after, dynamic and committed speaker, her presentations are known for engaging participants, stimulating learning and inspiring action. Bev has delivered thousands of dynamic and motivational speeches at professional conferences and to corporate audiences world-wide. She addresses an array of talent management topics across industries and to audiences of all sizes.

Her theories and processes have withstood the test of time, so much so that in 2010, the Association for Talent Development (ATD) honored her with the Distinguished Contribution for Workplace Learning and Performance Award. The designation is given to pioneers and prophets who had enduring impact and influence, originality of ideas, a substantive body of published work, and a contribution that raises the visibility, credibility and stature of the field. She has also been named by Leadership Excellence as one of North America's 100 top thought leaders.

She completed her graduate work at MIT’s Sloan School of Management and holds her doctorate from UCLA.

Transcript

Announcer: Welcome to the TalentGrow Show, where you can get actionable results-oriented insight and advice on how to take your leadership, communication and people skills to the next level and become the kind of leader people want to follow. And now, your host and leadership development strategist, Halelly Azulay.

Halelly: Hey, hey there. Welcome back Talent Growers. I'm Halelly Azulay, your leadership development strategist here at TalentGrow and I am looking forward to sharing today’s episode with you, with my friend and mentor and a woman I greatly, greatly admire and look up to, Dr. Beverly Kaye. In this episode, Bev shares with us a lot of information from her newest book called Up is Not the Only Way: Rethinking Career Mobility. Bev is an internationally recognized authority and best-selling author on career development, employee engagement and retention. She’s a sought after, dynamic and committed speaker. Her presentations are known for engaging participants, stimulating learning and inspiring action. She is the founder of Career Systems International, a talent management company, and her innovative and cutting-edge thinking have helped organizations solve their greatest challenges in employee engagement by creating impact with measurable and sustainable results. She’s among the first to recognize the importance of career development, as part of an organization’s development process.

In this episode, Bev shares with us the six categories of experience that help us rethink career mobility, and she says what she thinks are two important ways that organizations can help prepare individuals for upward moves, plus why organizations need to start finding more ways to sell, to encourage lateral moves, because up is not the only way. We talk about so much more, but I think that you’re going to really enjoy learning from Bev’s wisdom, which comes from four decades of research and experience. Without further ado, here we go, episode 62 of the TalentGrow Show, with Dr. Beverly Kaye.

Talent Growers, welcome back. I am here with my friend, my mentor, a woman I greatly admire and someone who is a repeat guest of the TalentGrow Show, Dr. Beverly Kaye. Bev was one of the earliest guests on my show, and you can hear a lot more of her story on that episode, which is episode two, but we wanted to get back together because Bev has a great new book out, and I wanted to share a lot of those ideas with you. Before we go there, and in case you didn’t listen to episode two and really want to know a little more about Bev before we dive into the meat and potatoes of this conversation, Bev, welcome to the TalentGrow Show. Tell us a brief description of your professional journey.

Bev: A brief description of 40 years?

Halelly: I know, a challenge!

Bev: I say in a sentence or two, it is that I’ve always had an interest in the world of career. And always had an interest in the world of organizational career development. Since my doctorate days at UCLA, when I did my doctoral thesis, it was all around how do organizations really grow their people? And how do people really take their part and grow themselves? It morphed into engagement. It morphed into retention. But those are the specialties that our organization has been doing for almost four decades.

Halelly: It’s so impressive, the work that you’ve done. Of course your track record and all of the assets that you’ve created and put into the world, like all of your books and everything else that you’ve done, so I’m sure that the listeners will join me in being grateful that you’ve given some of your time to us and your wisdom, because you’ve got a lot of that to share and we appreciate it. This book that has just come out – Up is Not the Only Way: Rethinking Career Mobility, but it’s actually a new book and an old book. You have co-authored this book with Lindy Williams and Lynn Cowart.

Bev: They are both members of my career systems organization and have been for many, many, many years.

Halelly: Tell us a little bit about what is the definition or what do you mean by career mobility? And who did you write this book for?

Bev: The career mobility question I think has always been around, and I think in the past it’s meant I’m mobile when I move out of where I am and into something else. I change completely. What we want to do is say that mobility means a collection of experiences, and roles and assignments and challenges and options. It’s not just physical. Later, when we talk, we’ll talk about never leaving your job, but still having career mobility. So I think that what’s interesting is that truly mobile careers now are full of all kinds of experiences. Good, bad, small, enormous, and the secret is to stay mobile, that you learn from everyone. And you take your learning to the next one.

You asked about the audience, when we first wrote it, we wrote it only to managers, who have to have that really tough, “what’s next” conversation. And it’s hard for a manager to face that conversation when they don’t even know what’s next for them, let alone for their people. I think the other fear managers have is that the “what next” question is all going to point to up. Up is not plentiful and so how do I have that conversation? As we wrote the book, our publisher said, “No, no, no, no. It should be written to both the manager and the employee.” That either who opened the book should be able to think about their own career mobility, as well as the career mobility of others. So unlike other books that we wrote to a direct audience, this one is really written to both.

Halelly: In a way this is written to everyone who is in a job, right?

Bev: Right. It really is. It really is. You know, now in most organizations, managers and individuals are talking – we hope they’re talking – a lot more. It isn’t as top down, for the most part, as it once was. We’re all pushing for more collaborative conversations. This is meant to be a collaborative conversation.

Halelly: Yeah. Of course those listening, if you didn’t listen or maybe you don’t remember our conversation in episode two, it was all about those kinds of conversations, because it was focused on how to have the sort of stay interview, instead of the exit interview, and how do you keep good people and happy and growing and challenged in their position, or in their jobs, so that you can continue to have a win-win relationship? I think this continues to build on everything else that you’re doing, which is to help managers have the tools that they need to know how to have these conversations in a fruitful and authentic way, but also to help people take ownership of their own career and their own development and give them ideas about what’s possible.

Bev: Right, and not wait for it to come from someone else. Not wait for that tap on the shoulder, and now you’re ready. I think it also speaks to – and this was really important to us – that I think we have to widen the net of who we think of when we think of talent. Talent is not just your high potential. I think talent is your high professionals, who also want to grow, also want to move, but may not have leadership on their sights. It really is a much wider net, and when I talk to organizations and they say, “We want development for everybody,” I smile. Because many say, “No, it’s for the top 100, top 200, etc.”

Halelly: And you can’t really have a productive organization with just the top 100, you know? You need everyone on board and everyone producing, and so you ought to probably spend some of your attention on the people that are in the middle. So, in this book, you talk about six different experiences that you suggest might help people with their career mobility, thinking, planning, doing and talking about. I’ll just name them – you say that the options, or you categorize the options into these six categories: enrichment, exploratory, lateral, realignment, vertical and relocation. Now, of course, everybody should go and grab a copy of this book, because what I really like about it is it’s written in such an accessible way and you have all of these graphics and call-outs and examples and stories and charts. Is this for me? How should I do it? What about this? What about that? So it’s very, very accessible. Of course in this conversation, this 30-minute conversation, we can’t give everybody everything in there. But, I would love for everyone to have at least sort of a tip of the fork taste of each of these six. So, can we tackle them one by one and give people maybe a sense of what each is, and maybe an example?

Bev: Sure. Here’s what we did for the words you use to name them are very traditional words that we’ve used in organizations forever. The first thing we wanted to do, we were following Edward de Bono’s idea that if you want to create another picture or another image, change the word you used to describe it. We worked hard to get rid of the old nomenclature, although it’s still buried in there, and come up with names that were much more descriptive of what mobility means right now. We called the enrichment move, which is stay where you are and grow, basically called it grow here. What we want to emphasize with grow here is that – and this is so critical now – that you don’t need to change jobs to grow. Growth is right in front of your eyes. Growth is mandatory. For now, I think standing still is absolutely falling behind.

I can’t believe the number of people, when I interviewed in organizations, who said, “I’m very happy doing exactly what I’m doing.” Like, don’t bother me. I like this, I like my office the way it is, I like my setup the way it is, I like my colleagues the way they are. I wonder how many jobs are exactly the same today as they were, I used to ask a year ago, now I’m asking a month ago. It could even be a week ago. I think standing still really is falling behind. I think it’s up to the individual to find ways to change what they’re doing, to pivot around what they’re doing, to add new skills and abilities to their repertoire. All the people who say, “If I do that, there’s not more money with it,” then maybe they aren’t, I call them, maybe they aren’t the careerists that they need to be, because I think that there’s much more than dollars in all of these different growth initiatives.

Halelly: Absolutely. A lot of times I talk to people about how money is not the only standard of value exchange. If you’re in a job and you’re getting money for the work that you’re doing, that’s great, but if you really want to be happy and fulfilled in your job, money is not going to do enough.

Bev: Right. So, it’s what’s going on in your area of expertise, in your domain, that in fact if you added something, if you went deeper into something, it would really make you more valuable. More valuable to your organization and it would excite you more about the current job. I would say of all the different moves – and we’re going to hit on them quickly – the grow here, I think is one of the most important. I think organizations that don’t see it as a major training ground to build employability are missing the mark. Maybe the word that stretches over all of this is the word employability, which is how I get the best of what I can out of what I’m doing, and how do I stay employable for moves within my organization or even moves to other companies, other organizations. The more I prime my own pump, the more I say, “How is the work I’m doing changing?” the better I’m going to be prepared for whatever comes down.

Halelly: Such a big difference between being employed and being employable. Employed is like past tense, right? Employable is about the present and the future and I totally agree with you. Whatever got you to your job and whatever got you to good performance is not going to keep you there because the world around you is changing. Just imagine the people who used to use some kind of an electronic typewriter to do their work. Can’t keep using that just because you’re great at it, it doesn’t mean anything. That one is really important. And of course if you run into problems having ideas about how to grow your skills, grow your knowledge, grow your abilities, it doesn’t have to also mean going to training classes necessarily or taking online classes or any of that. There’s a million ways you can do that. I discuss them certainly in my book, Employee Development on a Shoestring, and I know there are so many ideas in your book and beyond for that one.

Bev: And we even say an easy way to think about how to grow here is to say if you come up blank, well, what is my manager doing that I’d love to take on? Can I talk to my manager about that role? Or, what is a colleague doing that I want to learn? Shadow that colleague, whatever. Or even, what am I willing to delegate that’s on my list that if I let it go, it would open up more freedom for things I want to do and it would bring some learning down a notch in my own organization?

Halelly: Absolutely. The second experience you describe in your book is exploratory. The clever name you came up with for that one is try before you buy, which I love. So tell us a little bit, because it sounds similar to what you are about to describe.

Bev: Right. Try before you buy is, “What can I experiment with?” What can I try before saying, “Okay, that’s what I want.” I know so many people who move into another position or another area and say, “Oh my gosh, was this a mistake.” So how do you learn as much as you can about those areas that you think you’re interested in, or maybe even take them on for a short term, which many organizations are making happen now, so that you don’t march into something that isn’t quite right. I think the big thing out of this absolutely is for the manager to say, “So, what did you try? And what did you learn? What was the upside and the downside? And does that intrigue you as much as it once did?” You know, it’s so hard to talk about these, because every organization is different. Silicon Valley has a very rich try before you buy. They move people around, much more than some of the larger, more stayed organizations do.

But I think we have to think of this as maybe try before you buy in three sizes. I like to call them small but significant – maybe I just check out something for half a day or two hours. Or something really meaty but meaningful that would have me actually go into another area. Some organizations have great swap abilities and see if in fact I learn something really unique there that I might bring back to my other job, or where I might want to stay. There are large moves we make, and sometimes we end up staying in that area that we’re trying. So the secret is, experiment, experiment, experiment, and the secret to that is, what did I learn about myself, about this particular position, about what I’d like to do more of, less of, stop doing, etc.? Make sense?

Halelly: Yeah. It’s really very, it’s freeing, because it’s very flexible. It’s not like you’re committing. You’re just test-driving something and there’s no commitment yet, so you can see if it’s really all that much what you had imagined it to be, and you can take from it learning and information and ideas and skills that you can use wherever you end up, even if you end up in the same place. You won’t be the same person, you’ll be better.

Bev: Right. For many organizations, it really opens up the marketplace. It opens up those lines or the silos between departments, between divisions. Organizations that are on the cutting edge are making a “test-driving a new role” possible, for a certain period of time. They’re opening the marketplace. They’re allowing people to go after positions where someone has vacated because of maternity leave or someone has vacated because of a vacation. Those are great opportunities for others to try again, before they buy.

Halelly: Perfect. So let’s move into the third one, lateral moves. I don’t want to talk about that one a lot, because I think that one is actually probably something people have heard of and I want to make sure we get to all six. As opposed to moving up, you can move laterally. Tell us more.

Bev: I think laterally is going to grow the most. Because as the ladder becomes less and less possible, the rungs, they’re still there but we have a lot of missing rungs in the ladder that people are going to see laterals as viable as making a vertical move. In fact, I’ve seen some organizations call lateral moves “lateral promotions” and if we get more of that language out there, people will not see them as, “Oh, well, I take this just to cover myself for waiting for that vertical move.” I’ve seen the word laterality more and more and I’m seeing people talk about that more and more, and I think it’s an important step and a step that teaches us so much about our own work and the work of the organization. So, I think organizations have to find more ways to sell the lateral and show how it’s a move that builds your marketability, and show how it’s a move to connect you to new people and new leaders. Show how it’s a move that can help you build a portfolio of skills for the next job. And I think when expertise, it’s what’s essential, and breadth of experience, and I think that’s what makes that happen.

Halelly: Exactly. It’s a great opportunity. It’s gotten a bad wrap, like people think it’s like stepping in place or a signal you’re not good enough to move up, but as you said, first of all, there’s just less and less of the hierarchical structure in the first place, and even if there is, there’s one spot there and that’s it. Now what are you going to do? Wait for that person to move on? Wait for that person to retire? Silly. Your career should involve a lot of growth and movement and moving sideways can give you totally new opportunities. I like the chart you have on pages 60 and 61 of your book – for those of you who are going to go pick it up, you’ll love it – where people say, “Yeah, but …” and “Why should I?” “Oh, I already do that in this job. It won’t help me advance in my career. I won’t make more money.” You kind of debunk each of these concerns with really smart advice.

Bev: It’s the conversation managers absolutely have to have.

Halelly: It helps them, the managers have that conversation, to be thinking about this as you’re not trying to sell the person something that’s in their disinterest, you’re helping them see what it’s in their interest.

Bev: Absolutely.

Halelly: The next one is realignment. What was the clever name you came up with for that one?

Bev: Step back for a reason or a season. And stepping back doesn’t mean backwards. It means stepping back into something a little different, maybe because I see it growing. Maybe because I see it as an area that’s going to be hot in the future. Or maybe it is that where I am now was absolutely not what I thought it would be, and I want out. Or it’s the old story of the technical specialist who becomes the manager, and says, “Ew, I don’t even like people. What am I doing here?” Often, that person will leave the organization, leave the enterprise to do their technical work elsewhere, instead of being able to say, “I really want to go back to my technical work.” I think this is going to be a move that’s really going to grow in the future, as conversations open and managers begin to say, “Do you love what you’re doing? If not, let’s talk about some options,” and bring that out into the open so that the person isn’t saying, “I’m not going to say I failed. I’m going to just leave the company and move elsewhere.”

I think the job of every manager is to hang onto talent for the enterprise, not just for themselves. That’s a hard thing to do, because I don’t blame managers for wanting to hoard their best talent. I need that talent to make my numbers and make my goals. I think the idea of stepping back and new ways to move, to be mobile inside an organization is so important.

Halelly: If what you say is true, which I imagine it is, that it’s going to become more common, then hopefully we will all start to shed the stigma which I suspect is part of the problem here. That there’s sort of a shame that surrounds a move that seems like the opposite of up.

Bev: Right, right. We call that when up is the way, and I just think when up is the way, two things have to happen. We have to really make sure the individual who wants that vertical move gets it, in every sense of the word. Because they usually only look at the upsides and we don’t look at the downsides. In organizations that are preparing people for vertical moves, they are really saying, “Talk to the person who is in that role. Talk to others nearby that role. Find out everything you can about the headaches and the frustrations and the heartache, even, of that move, in addition to what’s so great about it, and let’s talk that through. Let’s talk through some questions that I think you ought to think about around that move and how an upward move is going to change other parts of your life.” I don’t think people who choose those moves think through all of that. I’m not saying managers should try to get somebody off track by looking at the downside, but I don’t think we look at the downsides enough.

Halelly: Don’t discourage them, but open your eyes.

Bev: Right. I also think we don’t do enough following up people who have made promotions, who have taken promotions, to see how they’re doing, how they’re fairing. What’s going on? We promote them and then we tell them to go run for it. I think we have to go back and say, “Are you glad you made that move? Talk to me about what you’re learning. What you’re sorry you’re not learning.”

Halelly: I bet you again, if we had more time to talk about it, my devil’s advocate hat comes on and says, “Well, people are probably scared to say that it wasn’t what they expected or that they encountered challenges or obstacles or that it was harder,” whatever. People want to put on the best face and look like they’re go-getters, and I bet, even maybe when they go do what you just suggested, which is go talk to other people and what did they find about it, probably some of those people might be inclined to put on a very positive spin to protect themselves and that’s part of the challenge of how do you get that information through the filters?

Bev: Absolutely. And asking a lot of different people, and it’s asking a deeper question. It’s asking question number two and question umber three, take you deeper than just the opening kind of dialogue. I think we’re getting –

Halelly: I think it’s how you language it too, right? Like if you say something like, “What did you not like?” you might not hear it, but if you say something like, “What surprised you most?” maybe they’ll say it.

Bev: Right, right.

Halelly: You were going to say something and I interrupted you again.

Bev: I was going to say then I think you need to debrief what you learned, with someone else, so it doesn’t go whoosh right over your head. Here’s what I heard that concerned me, here’s what I heard that excited me, and here’s what I heard that feels like a contradiction. I think all of that is important.

Halelly: Now Bev, do you suggest that people get someone else like that, who is maybe more neutral or objective, someone maybe from the outside the team or outside the organization, so that they can really be a sounding board or a mentor/coach?

Bev: Yeah. I think that would be wonderful. Even if it’s a friend and not somebody trained. Just say, “Here’s what I learned from that conversation. And here is how I think it’s going to affect my next choice.”

Halelly: The sixth experience you describe is relocation. Let’s talk about that one briefly.

Bev: Just to say that the grass isn’t always greener. In the book, we talk about elegant exits and respectful returns. That instead of just saying, “This person left,” let’s use why they’re leaving as information for us, and I know we think we get it through the exit interview. We don’t always get it enough. I think we should double-check with them where they’re going and will it have all of what they want in it? It’s a very important conversation, to help that person check out that greener grass and we also talk about respectful returns. So it’s an elegant exit, if you really help the person understand what they’re going toward. And then, it’s another elegant exit if you help them think about that your door is open, that people can come back, and I think that’s critical.

Halelly: And one other thing, of course, is underline everything that you advocate for you and you’ve spoken about both in our conversation today but in our past conversation as well, is that people should have more conversations about this stuff and maybe when we have more transparency and more communication, both around what people need, what people aren’t getting, what they hope to achieve, where they’re trying to go, how that went, what did they learn – all these things you’re embedding in the suggestions you’re making, all of that will make work better for everyone. Because probably we’re not doing that enough either.

Bev: Right. I wish there was more time, because this is the tip of the iceberg. But I think it’s a good iceberg for people to think about.

Halelly: That’s right. And this is, it’s true. It’s one of my frustrations about the format I’ve chosen. I have chosen 30 minutes because it seems like a good place for people to listen on their commute or when they’re running or walking or washing dishes, whatever. But of course, 30 minutes is a good amount of time to get a basic idea of something or a little bit of a variety of things, but not a lot of depth in anything. The good news is that you've just created, I hope, both curiosity, some sparks of new ideas, and you gave very specific follow-up suggestions and questions and things for people to consider and they know that they can get a lot more by reading the book that you wrote and also staying in touch with you, which we’re going to make sure we close with all of the ways that people can learn more from you and stay in touch with you.

Before we give people one really specific actionable tip that can help them get started down this path of what you’re suggesting is more mobility in their career and thinking about their career in a much broader and bigger and more flexible way than just up, what’s something real exciting on your horizon and then we’ll go to that tip?

Bev: Exciting on my horizon is developing a way to help people think through all of these moves. Under that they are a collection of experiences, and not the next five years or three years of my life is going to be that. How can I keep growing and adding all of these different kinds of experiences? They’re all experiences, so that I end up with a thicker portfolio and those experiences all give me a whole plethora of new skills and abilities. Because boy, are things changing out there, and old skills are going away and new skills are coming back, so it’s like where can I learn, how can I learn, and how do I not wait for someone to tell me now it’s time for you?

Halelly: Yes.

Bev: But to go find my own.

Halelly: And your time to do that is now, and all the time. I love that. That ties it right back to the beginning of our conversation. It’s not like you just do your job and mind your own business and never think about it. You have to think about it all the time.

Bev: All the time. You’re right.

Halelly: All right. Our listeners, when they finish listening to us, what would be the very next thing they should do – today, tomorrow, this week – to help them move forward towards having this kind of approach to their career?

Bev: I would just love them to think about these six and on a sheet of paper, force themselves to say, “What’s one thing I could do around each of those? If I grew in place, what’s the one thing I need to do better and learn that’s going to be hot in the future? If I step sideways, where would I step? If I tested something, what would I test for a short-term job assignment? Who could I ask? Who could I shadow? Whose job do I want to know more about?” If you could just jot down one idea in each of those, and if the grass is greener somewhere else, well, where is it greener? Because we don’t stop to do those different, make those different choices come alive, and I think we need to. Otherwise you’re attached to one idea and one idea only. And we all know that doesn’t work anymore.

Halelly: Yeah. Exploring possibilities is what I’m hearing in your suggestion? Think more broadly and think about all of the different possibilities. You don’t have to choose any of them or one of them, but think about down the path of each one, and force yourself to think of ideas or what would that look like, so that you can open the field of possibilities, which sounds like your mission in this book in the first place?

Bev: Right. Stay curious about what everybody else is doing, and how everybody else is growing. In your own organization, and in your friends’ organizations.

Halelly: Fabulous. I love it. On that note, how can people stay curious and learn more about what you’re doing and your organization? How should they stay in touch with you?

Bev: Well, we’ve got a great website, CareerSystemsInternational.com, and we’ve got articles and ideas and books and access points on there, and I think that might be the best next step.

Halelly: I will link to it from the show notes page, as well as to your books – you have so many – and I hope that people do stay in touch with you, because you are a force to reckoned with and one of the luminaries in our field. Bev, I’m sorry that our time is up for this conversation, but I do always look forward to our next one. Thank you for spending time with the Talent Growers community today.

Bev: Thank you! Thank you. Pleasure to be here with you.

Halelly: Well, that’s it for another episode TalentGrowers. I hope you enjoyed it and that you will take action. All the links to the resources, like Bev’s books and her website are on the show notes page, which is, as usual, at TalentGrow.com/podcast/episode62. And while you’re there, be sure to sign up for my free 10 Mistakes that Leaders Make tool plus get my short, fun and actionable weekly newsletter, if you’re not already on it. If you are already on it, hey, thank you! Hit reply, let me know what you thought, what you want to hear more from me about. You know we’re super proud that the TalentGrow Show has been selected to be part of the C Suite Radio Network of high-quality business podcasts. Always make sure to check out our podcast there at C-SuiteRadio.com. Get lots of useful leadership advice and insights. If you haven’t yet left us a review on iTunes, this is something that’s so important to help the show be noticed and also help it be discovered by people that are searching to new podcasts to listen to about leadership. That would be something that would take you a couple of minutes. You just go over to iTunes, within the app of iTunes, and you click on the rating – five stars hopefully, but whatever you feel – and just leave a review. It can be just two or three sentences, very short, and it’s super, super helpful. I appreciate you if you do that. That’s it for this episode. I look forward to speaking with you the next time. I’m Halelly Azulay, your leadership development strategist here at TalentGrow. I thank you for listening. I appreciate you. And until the next time, make today great.

Announcer: Thanks for listening to the TalentGrow Show, where we help you develop your talent to become the kind of leader that people want to follow. For more information, visit TalentGrow.com

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