162: How to Ace the Hiring Process – What Every Leader Needs to Know with Katie McConnell Olson

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Ep162 how to ace the hiring process what every leader needs to know Katie McConnell Olson TalentGrow Show with Halelly Azulay

It isn't hard to find advice on how to nail the hiring process as a candidate. But what about nailing it as hiring manager? Too many leaders are under-prepared when it comes to hiring and talent acquisition.

It isn’t hard to find advice on how to nail the hiring process as a candidate. But what about nailing it as hiring manager? Too many leaders are under-prepared when it comes to hiring and talent acquisition. On this episode of The TalentGrow Show, founder and president of Hire Education Consulting Group Katie McConnell Olson joins me to talk about what every leader needs to know about hiring. She goes step-by-step through the hiring process and shares advice on how to avoid common mistakes many leaders make, how to figure out the market value of a position, and what we can do to mitigate unconscious bias that may be affecting our hiring decisions. Plus, find out why it’s so important to discuss salary expectations up front! Listen and be sure to share this episode with others in your network.

ABOUT KATIE MCCONNELL OLSON: 

Katie is a licensed CPA and PHR (Certified Public Accountant, Professional of Human Resources) with a background in both accounting and talent acquisition. Prior to launching Hire Education Consulting Group, Katie has been involved in several start-up ventures and led a search practice with a national CPA firm. Her practice focuses on strategic recruitment initiatives including talent process improvements, organizational assessments, hiring initiatives and full-service search consulting.

Katie is a frequent speaker with organizations throughout the United States on topics including talent acquisition strategy. You can also find her publications on LinkedIn Pulse. Her passions include helping businesses grow, cooking and wine. Katie serves as the Treasurer of the NAWBO Sacramento Valley chapter and is passionate about women in business initiatives. She has been quoted in a variety of industry publications on topics including hiring and developing talent and was a featured Sacramento DisruptHR speaker in 2018 and was recognized as a Sacramento Business Journal 40 under 40.

WHAT YOU’LL LEARN:

The Hiring Process - Katie McConnell Olson, Hire Education Consulting, as described on episode 162 of The TalentGrow Show podcast with Halelly Azulay. (Click to enlarge)
https://www.talentgrow.com/podcast/episode162

  • What does every leader need to know about hiring? (6:39)

  • Katie describes the most important steps in the hiring process (7:56)

  • How do you figure out the market value of the role you are hiring for, and why it’s important to discuss salary expectations up front (10:17)

  • Tips for nailing a job interview as the interviewer (13:21)

  • We tend to be drawn towards people who are similar to us. How should we deal with or work around this unconscious bias so that we can build a well-balanced team? (16:22)

  • Common mistakes that leaders make in the hiring process (18:03)

  • Katie describes what she calls the pipelining process (20:26)

  • What’s new and exciting on Katie’s horizon? (25:38)

  • One specific action you can take to upgrade your leadership effectiveness (26:37)

RESOURCES:

TEASER CLIP: One of the things you can really get out of a job interview is what’s going on in the market? Who else are you interview with? What does their benefit package look like? What makes you interested in talking to them? I think we get nervous about asking those questions, but generally if we’re building trust up front, it’s a great way to gain free market information about what your competitors are offering so you know whether or not you’re staying competitive. If you’re talking to people who are saying, “I’m interviewing across the street because they have” whatever it is – you can bring your dog to work and we love that they have team-building parties and you go, “I’m not really doing that,” it’s a great opportunity for you to bridge some gaps and be market competitive as an employer of choice.

Welcome to the TalentGrow Show, where you can get actionable results-oriented insight and advice on how to take your leadership, communication and people skills to the next level and become the kind of leader people want to follow. And now, your host and leadership development strategist, Halelly Azulay.

Hey there. Welcome back TalentGrowers. I’m Halelly Azulay, your leadership development strategist here at TalentGrow. That’s the company that sponsors the TalentGrow Show to keep it free for you every Tuesday. This week we actually have a topic that we have never discussed on the TalentGrow Show and it’s surprising to me, in fact, when I reflect on that, because it is definitely part of your leadership challenge and it is the hiring process. I have brought on Katie McConnell Olsen, who is an expert in hiring and recruiting. We have a very fast-moving, with lots of examples, kind of conversation to help you think about what does every leader need to know about hiring? She talks about the process of hiring. What are some success tips when interviewing people? What do you need to know and how can you make sure that you’re asking the right things in the right way. We talk about some mistakes that a lot of leaders make that you can avoid going forward, and I think she even gives you some language like you’re going to want to go and get the transcript and just write down some of her language that you can modify, because it’s going to help you say the right thing in those tricky situations I know that many of us dread. Of course, as always, we end with one specific action that you can take. So, I hope that you enjoy this one. I’d love to hear what you thought about it. Without further ado, let’s listen to my conversation with Katie.

TalentGrowers, I have Katie McConnell Olsen on today with me. She is a licensed CPA and PHR. Those stand for Certified Public Accountant and Professional of Human Resources. She has a background in both accounting and talent acquisition. Prior to launching her company, Hire Education Consulting Group, Katie has been involved in several start-up ventures and led a search practice with a national CPA firm. Her practice focuses on strategic recruitment initiatives, including talent process improvements, organizational assessments, hiring initiatives and full-service search consulting. Katie is a frequent speaker with organizations throughout the United States on topics including talent acquisition strategy. You can also find her publications on LinkedIn. Her passions include helping businesses grow, cooking and wine. I like those too! Katie serves as the treasurer of the National Association for Women Business Owners, Sacramento Valley chapter, and is passionate about women in business initiatives. She’s been quoted in a variety of industry publications on topics including hiring and developing talent, and was a featured Sacramento Disrupt HR speaker in 2018 and was recognized as a Sacramento Business Journal 40 under 40. Katie, welcome to the TalentGrow Show.

Wow, thank you. Happy to be here.

I’m glad you’re here too. Another California girl. I have to tell you, I have the word “talent” in my business name TalentGrow, so it’s always funny to see how people react to that word. For some people it just means, “Oh, are you a talent scout? Do you look for people who can sing and act?” Of course, no. Here near Hollywood that probably gets exacerbated, but then people immediately, if they’re in the business world and are aware of the world “talent” being kind of another word for human resources or people in the organization, then they start asking me about talent acquisition and hiring. I really don’t know anything about that. What I know is developing talent – helping to keep people growing and engaged and motivated to stay and produce highly in your organization, once you have them. So, it’s the first time, actually, I’ve brought anyone on the show to talk about this other aspect of talent, which is how to bring them on in the first place. I’m really looking forward to speaking with you about that, but before we get started, I always ask my guests to introduce their professional journey briefly. Where did you start and how did you get to where you are today?

Kind of a non-linear path. Started in public accounting, so I got a degree in finance. Started in the world of auditing and public accounting, and then migrated through a few start-ups into recruiting, kind of by accident, where I really discovered, “You know, I really love recruiting.” And I was hiring accountants at that time, and then I had an opportunity – I actually got recruited myself – back into public accounting, recruiting accountants for CPAs. Then I said, you know, I have another business idea, and I started a practice within a CPA firm helping companies hire accountants. One thing led to another and I said, “You know, there is a lot more going on here than just me putting butts in seats, if you will, and much more than just the accounting arena.” So I ended up exiting that CPA firm, launched my company, Hire Education. The thought process behind that being we’re going to teach you how to hire and educate you about hiring and it really opened up a whole new world around how we hire, the process and strategy behind hiring, as well as that full-cycle search component. That’s where we are today!

Very cool. TalentGrowers know that I love meandering paths because it proves that none of us necessarily come out knowing from the beginning what we’re meant to do or what we want to do and we often just sort of find clues along the way. You’ve been really experiencing a lot of success. You haven’t run your business for too long and you’ve grown fast?

Yes. We’re proud to be 100-percent woman-owned business, and actually right now an all-female team. I’m sure that will change as we grow. We’re in our second year and we are definitely moving and shaking and having a lot of fun working all over the Western United States.

Awesome. So you’re an expert on the hiring process, so what does every leader need to know about hiring, Katie?

I think if there’s one gem of wisdom I could boil it all down to, it would be that every hiring breakdown is the result of a faulty process. I hear a lot of complaints about hiring – we can’t find good people, or people don’t stay or the classic, “There’s no good people out there. Young people don’t want to…” or Millennials or Gen Z’s or whoever we’re complaining about now, and at the end of the day it really comes down to process and what’s your process for finding those people. Are you fishing in the right pond? You’re not going to go fishing for an ocean fish in a lake, or you’re not going to find any and you’re going to say, “There are no Marlin in this lake.” That’s because they don’t live there. So you’ve got to figure out your process, so that you’re looking in the right places. I think process always needs to come before execution, or you’re never going to have consistent results. Hiring managers, I think, get lucky enough of the time that they keep doing the same thing and then just keep complaining about the fact that they’re not getting different results.

Okay, so having a process. I know you sent me over a graphic that maybe we can share on the show notes so people can review it too, because it’s hard to keep up with when we describe something that is a process just with words, but give us your best shot – what are the most important steps in the process?

That graphic that you’re referring to is really our best practices and it’s our internal process for how we go about hiring, but every company has slightly different take on it, and it depends on the role and who you’re trying to hire for and at what level. Essentially, it starts with, “Hey, we need to hire somebody,” and that either looks like a replacement or we’re growing and we need to add someone to the team. And what does that really look like? Really, part of our process is spending a lot of time with what we call abundant clarity around what we really need. What does that look like? What are those core competencies? What do we have to have? What would we like to have and what does true success in the role look like? That’s deciding our fish, right? So we know what kind of bait to put on the hook and where to go looking. Then, once we’ve got that figured out, we say, “How much is that worth in the market?” I call that the value of the role. This is important because I think a hiring fail is often that we let the tail wag a dog a bit with finding someone we think could be a fit and then backing into their salary, rather than saying, “What is the true value of this role for the duties that are being performed and the value to our company? What does the salary look like? Now, how can we go find candidates that fit that post?”

From there, we’ve got to go find them. We call it sourcing, and then a screening process, which can be phone interviews, pre-screens, testing, in person interview, however that process looks. It’s different for everybody. Of course, moving into the in-person interview and then offer a letter of negotiation to our prospect which is really important. Of course, where you come in, the onboarding and retention and growth and keeping those folks in the seat and successful.

It’s a lot of steps, and a lot of times I know leaders are strapped for time. They’ve got to get the work done, especially if now they’ve lost someone or are about to lose someone. They’ve got that to deal with, and then they have to do all of this or I guess this is where people like you can come in and take some of that load off of their shoulders? How much do you do yourself?

Of course, I’m biased! If you’re busy and you don’t have time to do this, hire somebody to make sure it gets done right. Don’t shortcut the process because you’re going to be more in over your head if you bring in the wrong person and now you’re just ramming your head against the wall training or investing into someone that’s just not a fit.

And then having to do all of it all over again, that just sounds awful. I want to ask you about all of it, but of course we only have a half-hour podcast here. So, value in the market, what’s a tip for how do you figure that out?

There are a ton of benchmarking tools out there through, if you run your payroll through a third-party processor, they probably have a benchmarking tool if you ask them, or they can give you some data for like-sized companies that they’re also running payroll for. That’s like a good rock to look under, if you real. Department of Labor has a ton of statistics, several recruiting firms nationally publish salary surveys and salary guides, so there is a ton of information out there that’s available at your fingertips to kind of figure that out. My best recommendation is to really conduct some interviews and ask people, “What is your bottom line? What are you looking for?” And gather market data around what’s going on with wages. Of course, now in California and other states you can’t ask what candidates are currently making, but we can certainly ask what they’re looking for as a benchmark salary and kind of give you an idea of where ranges fall.

And of course as candidates, I haven’t been in a job interview in a long time, thankfully, I’ve been running my own business for almost 14 years! But I remember, that’s a stressful kind of question as a candidate. You don’t want to say something too low, because then you’re short-selling yourself. You don’t want to overreach because you might get knocked out of the process unnecessarily.

It’s definitely an important conversation to have up front. I tell clients and candidates alike – and clients meaning companies – talk about it up front. Because you don’t want to get to the 11th hour and then have a huge disparity where you’re offending someone or there’s a misalignment. I just had a candidate I was coaching on the candidate side get all the way to the finish line and decline the job offer. And from the company side, I know how devastating that is because we have to start all over again if we don’t have a backup candidate. But on the candidate side, it was a huge investment of time and at the end of the day, she was really bummed, but it was the right decision. If we would have had that conversation up front, that could have been avoided right out of the gate and could have saved a ton of time for everybody. Don’t be afraid to have that conversation. It’s business and it’s an important part of the process to align expectations.

I sometimes ask ridiculously-specific questions, but when you say “up front,” do you mean in the first interview? Like in the first conversation?

Yup. I mean in the pre-screen. Once and a while, if I’m looking at a candidate on paper – and mind you, I look at a million resumes a week, factual data, a million, probably more like a couple of hundred – but I can look at a resume pretty closely and go, “They might be priced out for this role.” So I might right back in an email and say, “Love your background. Really excited to talk to you. Want to get the elephant in the room out of the way first because I’m nervous our salary doesn’t line up. Here is our range. What are you looking for? Are we on the same page?” And they might write me back an email and go, “We’re $50,000 off.” Okay, thanks, now I know I don’t even need to spend a half an hour having a call with you.

Nice! TalentGrowers, right there, push pause, play that again or even better, you can go to the show notes page and get the transcript, and there’s the language. You can probably just use it in your own words, but that’s a great concrete idea of how to do that. Love that, elephant in the room. So, you brought up this idea that you’ve been coaching candidates and we all have heard and read so much advice about how to nail that job interview as a candidate, but a lot of us as leaders are feeling like we don’t have as many good tips for how to nail the interview as the interviewer. So, what are some of your best success tips for that?

Yes! So true. It definitely is I think the unspoken thing that the interviewer knows what they do when they go into the interview. The reality is we spend probably more time coaching our interviewers on how to get information out of candidates and how to kind of go about it the right way to maximize success. A couple of ideas, talking too much about yourself in the interview. So, statistically proven, if you conduct an interview and you spend the majority of the time talking about yourself, you will have a better experience. Because we all like to talk about ourselves. I think that’s something to really be aware of, if you’re an interviewer who spends a ton of time talking about, “This is my background, my story, why I love what I do,” barely gets any information out of the candidate, walks out of the room and says, “Love them, we’ve got to give them a job offer,” and really gathered no relevant information.

They’re a good listener! They listened to me talk about myself!

Exactly. They’re great, but it doesn’t really tell us anything. I think if there’s one piece of advice that I can give, one interview question you ask is, “Tell me more about that.” If that’s the only question you ask, it’s getting that candidate to share information with you and go, “Hmm, tell me more about that.” Just peeling back the layers of information. I think what I see often times is we ask very surface-level questions. Why do you want this job? Have you ever done this? Have you ever done that? And we have a firing squad of 50 questions we’re running through an in hour, which is really overwhelming and very surface level. Pair that down to six really solid questions and go four or five layers deep into, “Why do you think that is? Tell me more about why you feel that way?” Let’s peel back the motivation so that we’re really getting to values, core competency alignment and that root with candidates.

Okay. What are some other things we should be asking about that a lot of people don't?

I think on the whole, interview questions need to link to the core competencies of the job. For example, one of the core values that we have within our company is this desire to win. We’re recruiters, we want to win, we want to close deals for people. It’s winning when we make a match and hire somebody. So we’re looking for people who have a winning mentality. We might ask questions like, “How important is winning to you? Tell me more about that? What does winning look like? Can you give me an example?” Past performance is the best indicator of future performance. Not hypothetical. “What would you do if this happened to you?” Of course you’re going to tell me what you think I want to hear. But prove it. What have you done in the past? Maybe it wasn’t perfect, so where did you make mistakes? What did you learn from it? How would you do it again if you could do it differently? Looking for cognitive thought process. Because I want to find someone that aligns with my strengths and my core values and core competencies.

Speaking of strengths, I wanted to follow up on that. I know when I talk to leaders in teams, I often talk about how we tend to look for people who are like us, similar to us, especially if you’re been successful in a role and it’s because you have a strength in X, Y or Z skill, you look for other people and then you call that having a fit. And, we know also that a lot of times you want complementary skillsets on the team, so that not everybody is a clone of you, so that if you are really good at ideas but not really good at execution, for example, you want people on your team that are implementers. They just love to get their sleeves rolled up and get into the detail of execution. So how do you coach leaders on how to interview to make sure they don’t just keep looking for clones?

That’s a great point about unconscious bias. There’s a lot of unconscious bias that we apply in a job interview that we really want to be paying attention to, so we’re not just hiring mini-me. It depends on the job though. Sometimes it’s really important to hire to your strengths. If you’re hiring your executive assistant, you need somebody who is a mirror of what you’re really good at because you need to be one voice with them. I’m going to start with what are you really good at? What are your core competency strengths and let’s develop a profile that mirrors that, so we’re not hiring career weaknesses or you’re just going to be perpetually frustrated. But if you’re hiring an operations manager and you’re a CEO or a peer level in a different department, then you might want someone who is going to augment your skillset. I think that goes back to a strong process that really hammers on what are we looking for before we undertake finding somebody who is in misalignment. It might be that we want to replicate our skills. It might be that we don’t.

In your conversation, I picked up a few mistakes and challenges that a lot of leaders face in the process of hiring. We talked about not having a process as a mistake, talking too much during the interview. What are some other challenges that a lot of leaders are having or maybe mistakes that you see commonly made that you can help people avoid in the hiring process?

One common one that we touched on a little bit is finding the person and then backing into the role. I hear a lot of, “We met this gal and we think she’s really great and we think she could do X, Y and Z.” All the sudden we have a candidate on our hands that doesn’t have a clearly defined goal, so we might be setting them up for failure or just for a real uphill battle. We’re kind of backing into the needs of the business around the person. My really strong advice is figure out the needs of your business, and then go find the right person. And I understand that sometimes we find someone that just feels like a gem. Don’t do it too fast. I think I see often times, hiring is a pain, hiring takes you out of your normal day to days, you’ve got people to manage and you’ve got a boss to report to – it’s a pain. But take your time, because when you make a decision too fast, it ends up biting you in the behind and now you’re going to have a termination situation or a time suck of performance management that just creates more headaches for you.

Good advice. It’s hard, I know. I’ve seen this many times where you find someone that you kind of create – if you can and you have the flexibility and you create a role that’s perfect for them and they add value on your team, then that’s okay I guess – but it’s not going to fill your needs for a gap that you have if you approach it that way. What else are people doing wrong?

I think it’s important to pay attention to the market. One of the things you can really get out of a job interview is what’s going on in the market. Who else are you interview with? What does their benefit package look like? What makes you interested in talking to them? I think we get nervous about asking those questions, but generally if we’re building trust up front, it’s a great way to gain free market information about what your competitors are offering so you know whether or not you’re staying competitive. If you’re talking to people who are saying, “I’m interviewing across the street because they have” whatever it is – you can bring your dog to work and we love that they have team-building parties and you go, “I’m not really doing that,” it’s a great opportunity for you to bridge some gaps and be market competitive as an employer of choice.

Good idea.

Lastly I would say pipelining. I see that in my graphic, which we didn’t talk about, but pipelining is really looking before you have a need. Building your bench. I think this is a huge missed opportunity in the market. Most companies don’t hire or don’t start looking until they already have a need, in which case you’re two months behind the market. But if you’ve got people on the bench that you’re constantly talking to and cultivating, then you can move somebody over in half the amount of time it takes to run a search from scratch.

Tell me more about that. See what I did there?

See? Look at you. You’re a quick study! What that means is, you’ve heard the phrase, “Always been interviewing.” We use that phrase all the time with our clients. Pipelining is a strategy where we’ve identified for these five – just a random number – key roles, we know that we need these core competencies and skillsets, and so we know in the marketplace and with our competitors or globally or whatever, there are 20 people on our radar that we’re interested in. We’re going to start talking to them, sharing information about our company, what we do, what our differentiator is. Right now might not be a good time for them to make a move, but it’s an absolutely important relationship because they might know someone or they might be interested in later on down the road.

I’ll give you an example. We have a client and we’ve been talking to a potential candidate since February. It wasn’t a good time – he and his wife had just had a baby, etc., etc. – but he was interested in what we had going on. We did a bit of fostering that relationship, giving him information about the company, and I think we have him coming in for an interview again in a few weeks. It might take a year, but it’s a very key role in management and we have a pipeline. We don’t have to run a search from scratch.

I want to ask you about that. Are you approaching people, or is it people that approached you? I’m trying to think how do you get these kinds of good candidates who are not looking for a job right now and can wait eight months to talk to you?

We’re approaching people. We have, of course, all the latest and greatest software platforms and all the traditional “headhunting tools” so we’re running targeted searches and then approaching people and having conversations with them. Sometimes they come to us, or if we’re leveraging a good strategy around an internal referral program, our existing employees are giving us names and saying, “Hey, I know Joe over at this other company. Not sure if he’s looking right now, but he’s got a really good skillset and I feel like he would fit in with the team really well.” So we’re deploying boots on the ground in the company to kind of help us do the recruiting work.

Gotcha. That clarifies it. By the way, do you recommend having an employee referral program? Does that work well?

Absolutely. I wish I came prepared with some statistics, but I can tell you a large client that we work with, I want to say they have about an 80-percent retention rate with internal referral candidates and it’s much lower with external hires, because people want to work with people they like. And it makes our job easier when they’re all out at networking events or the bar or wherever they hang out and they’re talking about, “Hey, I love my job, and do you want to learn more about what it means to come to work here? Let me pass you off to someone that can have those scary conversations about money and salary and all that HR stuff that I don’t know about.”

And it would make sense, because there’s skin in the game. As an employee, you don’t want to be recommending your company to people you know and like if your company stinks because your reputation is on the line and your relationship is on the line, so you’re not likely to do it unless you are sincere, and then people trust you and then you’re choosing people you think will be a good fit so it doesn’t backfire, because if you have financial incentive, you want it to work. It sounds like a really good win-win-win.

Absolutely. We do actually quite a bit of work in my firm around referral programs, either putting them in place or, “Hey, we have one, but nobody is sending us people so it doesn’t work.” My first step is, “Why isn’t it working? Do people not know about it?” Again, this goes back to process and finding the breakdown. Do they not know about it? Maybe they’re not aware of the openings. Maybe they’re afraid to approach people. Maybe it’s because they don’t actually like working here, so we have a bigger issue that we need to uncover, or maybe the incentive just doesn't line up. I had a client ask me, “Katie, maybe we should give them more money. We’re offering $1,000. Maybe we should increase this to $2,000.” I said, “Have you asked your employees?” No. I said, “Let’s go out there and ask them and see what they want.” I started having conversations and interviewing them and it turns out – and this was an electrical company – what they wanted was not even money. They didn’t care. They wanted hoodies and they wanted new boots and gift cards for new tools. Okay, let’s change it up! Let’s make it an easy swap. They want the swag. We moved some things around and all the sudden, they’re wearing it and other employees are going, “Where did you get those new boots?” “Jim works here now and I got the boots out of the deal.” Now all the sudden they want to do it.

That’s way cheaper than an extra $1,000.

And it was about what it stood for. I had another company and they traveled and they wanted airline gift certificates and luggage and things for traveling. That was part of their culture, so that’s what floated their boat.

Cool. Those are really great suggestions. All right Katie, we’re almost out of time. We always share a specific action tip at the end, but before that, what’s new and exciting on your horizon? What’s exciting you these days?

Well, internally we’re really excited. We’re launching a workshop series in early 2020. It’s kind of a one-day, mini hiring seminar, if you will, where we’re kind of taking a deep dive into all the stuff and helping you uncover where sticky spots are. So we’re really excited about that, and then just globally in California there’s the new AB-5 Ruling, heading back from the Dynamex case around independent contractors. It’s a changer in the market. So really tightening down on 1099, no more of that, which is going to be a shift for us around, we’re kind of waiting to see what happens. Are we going to end up hiring more people? Are we going to end up with more setting up co-employment? Are we going to see temp agency work on the rise? I don’t know what’s going to happen yet, but definitely going to be a game changer.

Very interesting. Maybe we’ll have you come back and talk more about that another time. So, what’s one specific action that TalentGrowers can take this afternoon, tomorrow, this week, that can help them ratchet up their own success with hiring?

Pay attention to where you’re complaining. Everybody has complaints about hiring. I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone who said, “It’s my favorite thing to do.” So pay attention to where you’re complaining and get curious about tracing that back to the process breakdown. Whatever your complaint is, where does that link in with a process that isn’t working and start looking at where you can enhance that process.

I know people are going to want to hear more about what you’ve got going on, learn more from you and about you. What are some good places to do that? Online or on social?

Certainly. We’re very active on LinkedIn, so you can find us there through my page or through Hire Education Consulting Group. You can find us on the web, HireEducationConsulting.com. Those are two great places that link you up with us and have access to all our other resources.

Awesome, and we will link to that on the show notes page of course. Well, Katie, it’s been a fun conversation. I appreciate your insights and sharing all of that with the TalentGrowers. I bet that’s going to help them a great deal, so thank you.

Thank you.

Well there you have it TalentGrowers. Yet another episode of the TalentGrow Show to help you become the leader people want to follow. This one as I said is a little bit of an unusual topic for us so I’d love to hear what you thought. Of course, take action and go and think about where are you experiencing some bugs in your hiring process that you can fix, based on those complaints that you’re hearing quite often, either from yourself or from others in your organization. I hope you enjoyed the conversation with Katie. I look forward to hearing from you about what you want to hear about on a future episode of the TalentGrow Show. As you know, about three times a month we have a guest interview and about one time every month we have a solo episode where I share some of my insights that I share in my speaking events or with my workshop participants, or an Ask Halelly episode where I answer a question that I get from the media or listeners or people in my workshops and audiences. So I look forward to that conversation with you and I thank you for listening today. This is the TalentGrow Show and I’m Halelly Azuay, your leadership development strategist. Thank you for listening, and until the next time, make today great.

Thanks for listening to the TalentGrow Show, where we help you develop your talent to become the kind of leader that people want to follow. For more information, visit TalentGrow.com.

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Intro/outro music: "Why-Y" by Esta