156: Discovering Your Central Purpose – Why Leaders Need Philosophy with Tal Tsfany
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Understanding yourself and what motivates you is a critical piece of leadership success. This means that philosophy, which helps us understand the principles that govern the human mind and the mind’s relationship with reality, can be an invaluable tool to upgrade your leadership effectiveness. Tech entrepreneur and nonprofilt CEO Tal Tsfany shares his journey to discovering his personal central purpose and how philosophy and introspection paved the way for his success on this episode of The TalentGrow Show. We discuss the process he went through to discover his values, how to avoid philosophical mistakes many leaders make, and how to bring out the genius within each of your employees by understanding their motivations. Plus, find out what it means to be what Tal calls a ‘valuer of life’! Tune in and share with others in your network.
ABOUT TAL TSFANY:
Tal Tsfany is the president and CEO of the Ayn Rand Institute. Mr. Tsfany has been an entrepreneur, investor and executive in the software world. He has built and grown successful teams and businesses in Israel and the United States. Mr. Tsfany is a co-founder of the Ayn Rand Center Israel.
WHAT YOU’LL LEARN:
What are some key leadership tips or lessons that, in Tal’s experience, stay constant throughout different organizational cultures, sizes, and types? (4:48)
Tal talks about the ways in which we do need to grow and change with our market and environment while staying true to our fundamental principles (8:09)
How did Tal discover his ‘central purpose’? And what are some philosophical mistakes that many leaders make? (11:51)
What is philosophy about and why is it important for leaders to understand? (14:20)
Tal describes in detail the process he went through to discover his purpose (17:04)
A moment in Tal’s life that illuminated for him the value of introspection (20:37)
Tal explains his unique way of interviewing people in order to understand their individual motivations (22:08)
Helping your employees to discover the genius within them and the importance of hiring people that will thrive in your particular work environment (25:10)
What’s new and exciting on Tal’s horizon? (28:34)
One specific action you can take to upgrade your leadership skills (29:03)
RESOURCES:
Transcript:
Episode 156 Tal Tsfany
TEASER CLIP: Tal: If you ask me why I went and became an engineer, I thought I was going to get a good job and make a good living. But at the age of 39, 40, I really discovered a different path of looking inward and asking yourself and introspecting and what do I want out of life? If you remove all constraints and you ignore the fact that you have a wife, three kids, a mortgage and a lot of responsibility for a second – what do I want? The only true limited resource in the world that you have is time. It’s nothing else. People think it’s about money, it’s about fame and fortune. It’s not. It’s about doing what you want to do. This beautiful concept that I found in philosophy called the central purpose – how do you discover it? We spend so much time defining a company’s vision and mission, and we don’t think for a day about what is our own personal vision and mission?
[MUSIC] Announcer: Welcome to the TalentGrow Show, where you can get actionable results-oriented insight and advice on how to take your leadership, communication and people skills to the next level and become the kind of leader people want to follow. And now, your host and leadership development strategist, Halelly Azulay.
Halelly: Hey, hey TalentGrowers. Welcome back to another episode of the TalentGrow Show. I’m Halelly Azulay, your leadership development strategist here at TalentGrow. TalentGrow is the company I founded in 2006 and the company that sponsors this show to keep it free for you every Tuesday. What we do is develop leaders that people actually want to follow. This week on the show I have a leader who has been a leader in a lot of different kinds of organizations, in different cultures, in different cities, in different countries, and he shares a really unique perspective based on his own professional journey and a lot of insights that he has gained from a process that he’ll describe of introspection and recognizing what you actually value and then how do you connect your employees, help them connect with what they value? Finding that beautiful, juicy intersection between your needs and their values and putting them in the exact place that allows them to maximize value creation.
This show is a little bit more philosophical than typically, but I think that is a huge value to sometimes stop what we do, get a little bit away from the tactical and really reflect on our philosophy and what’s guiding us. I hope that you enjoy this show and I look forward to hearing what you thought afterward. Let’s take a listen to my conversation with Tal Tsfany.
TalentGrowers, Tal Tsfany is here. He is the President and CEO of the Ayn Rand Institute. He has been an entrepreneur, investor and executive in the software world. He has built and grown successful teams and businesses in Israel and in the United States, and Tal is the co-founder of the Ayn Rand Center in Israel. Tal and I met a long time ago, actually, in a couple of different scenes and environments and I’ve watched him over time develop his organization and exercise his leadership skills, so I’m really excited to have Tal on the show today to share some of that with us. Tal, thank you for joining us on the TalentGrow Show.
Tal: It’s a pleasure to be here Halelly, how are you?
Halelly: Excellent, and I’m really looing forward to our conversation today. Before we get started though, I always ask my guests to describe their professional journey. Very briefly, where did you start and how did you get to where you are today?
Tal: I started as an SAT tutor back in Israel and started at the bottom of the largest Israeli private education company. Four years later I was the CEO at a very young age. And then we sold that company to Caplin and then I moved onto tech. I actually was in tech training, a VP sales and marketing for big companies in Israel. Then I was head hunted into a software company to lead the training organization. Then they moved me to a high-potential program and told me, “Oh, no, you need to get into software itself.” So they moved me to the U.S. in 2006, into Atlanta, Georgia, where I live today, and I became a VP of a 20,000-people company, a software company called Amdocs. Then after reading a very important book in my life, I decided to venture on my own and join a startup company with a relative of mine. We grew it to about 250 people and then sold it last year. Then I decided to make a really interesting move and now I’m CEO and President of a nonprofit organization, which is a very different environment, but in a way very simple. That’s where I am today.
Halelly: It’s really interesting to me, because obviously you have had a journey that’s very rich. You’re not that old, you’ve done so much over that time, and so much of that has been in a leadership role and also in a lot of different cultural situations, in different countries, in different types of organizations, in different sizes of organizations. So, I want to actually just dig into that a little bit. What do you think are some of the key leadership lessons or tips that you’ve found that transcend the cultures? What are some of the things that are constant, regardless of the national culture or the organizational size or type, and what are some things that you think are really different in these different contexts? I know there are probably a million, but if you can focus on a couple, that would be so helpful.
Tal: I think people are people, and the first thing you need to understand that everything around you is a market of values, both internally and externally. You’re selling values to your customers, in the shape of a product or service, but also your employees. They get a lot of satisfaction, a lot of pride for working for a cause and doing productive work. So, in a way we’re in the market of values and what you need to make sure is it’s a market of positive facts. I would say it’s very different to work for a 20,000-people company or two people in a room and growing it to five people and 10 people. It’s very different dynamics, but all in all, you’re trying to create value. That’s the way I think about it.
From a leadership, specifically when you’re leading people, it’s a very different responsibility than just executing on something. When you’re leading people there’s a whole different dimension. I call it being on the balcony. You have the responsibility not to just dance on the dance floor with everyone and do the doing, but also you have the unique responsibility to go up on the balcony and look ahead, see what’s going on, what’s moving in what direction, both in the company and outside the company, and lay a vision because people that are fighting in the battlefield need to trust you, that you know what they’re fighting for, what cause and what direction, and why are we doing what we’re doing? You always answer the why. If it’s very clear why we’re doing what we’re doing and they trust you and they sign up for the mission, then I think the foundation is there to create a wonderful culture of partnerships and teamwork that is working toward an inspiring vision. I spend a lot of time on the why – why are we doing things? A lot of times I’m planning and making sure that everybody, again, from their own value system is aligned with what you’re trying to achieve, what the company is trying to achieve, and we talk about it and discuss it and what it means for everyone. What will the world look like if we’re successful? When you lay that vision, everybody gets excited and they bring their own system of values to that mix. That’s the wonderful thing about people – everybody is different. So I try not to put people into buckets. I try to manage every person as their own unique persona and really always trade with them, value for value. What are they bringing to the table? What are their strengths? What are their aspirations? Try to give them the best environment to thrive. That’s my philosophy of leadership.
Halelly: I love that and I totally share that philosophy. That’s one of the reasons why I enjoy being friends with you, because you think very much like me in that way. So I heard in your description there that vision is something that is a constant, a leadership constant, regardless of the organization. Have you found maybe even any surprising challenges where, hmm, this is not the same here as it was in my other organization along the transitions you’ve made over these different kinds of cultures?
Tal: Oh yeah, so many different dimensions. Every time, it starts with are you selling a product or are you selling a service? It continues with what type of market you’re in, who are you competing with? To give you a little example, when we started the start-up, we were selling to small and medium businesses. A kind of one-to-many relationship. So you’re all about creating a wonderful, digital experience for customers to find you on the web and they find your software and they sign up and they start a trial and then they convert and everything is great and we grew to like 7,500 customers. We thought we were going to conquer the world. Then we hit the mid-market and those are the bigger companies, so suddenly you need to talk to them and sell them and they have requests. They want your software to do this and it doesn’t do this. So, we continue to grow, but then we hit the enterprise market, the big companies. And that was really a learning experience of how different you need to approach everything. The culture, the internal culture, the sales structures, the whole attitude toward customers and the way you build your product. It completely changed on us and this is why at the end of the day we decided to sell the company because we didn’t have the DNA of a company to continue to grow into the enterprise market and we thought it was going to be a better opportunity to sell it to a company that’s already there. Environments really dictate inside of your organization, because again, you’re all about offering value to the environment and if your customer is saying, “No, I want a software that has more security in it,” and it’s going to be longer sales cycles because I want to make sure that everything is covered, it’s not like the small mom and pop shops that can make a decision and pay you $150 a month. I’m going to pay you maybe $100,000 a month, so it’s a whole different ballgame.
I learned to be very open-minded and very agile as they say in the Silicon Valley to understand that your work can change at any given moment and you have to adjust to it. That’s the beauty of our reality. So complex and so dynamic and nothing works the same way over time, other than very fundamental principles. You have to change. There’s the book by the Intel CEO Andy Grove called Only the Paranoid Survive and in a way, he’s right. You always have to be on the lookout for what’s going to change on me. Even one person leaving your team, another person joining the team, can completely change the dynamics of a team. Things like that.
Halelly: True. And then it catches you off guard if you’re not really on the lookout always. Hopefully not in a paranoid way, but in an observant way, an aware way.
Tal: Yes, quit using the word paranoid. You have to always be on the lookout, just a positive perspective.
Halelly: Speaking of a positive perspective and the philosophy, there is definitely a way in which one’s philosophy guides one’s decisions and approach to life and approach to career, and you have recently done a series of webinars and I was happy to watch one of the iterations of it about discovering and pursuing your central purpose. I also know that you are very focused on philosophy, obviously, in the type of work that you do, where you lead a center that is all about a philosophy. I want to ask you, from two different perspectives – one from a personal perspective about how do you discover and pursue your own central purpose, just like in a business, you have a vision that you help people understand? And then maybe from a leadership perspective? So these are two different questions and you can take them in whichever order you prefer. From a leadership perspective, what are some other big mistakes that are philosophical mistakes that you see leaders are making that we can avoid or overcome? From personal and from a leader perspective.
Tal: From personal perspective, the reason why I’m so passionate about it is because I really had to go through a very profound process of rediscovering my central purpose. For 40 years I was a pretty successful businessperson and leader and was doing pretty well, but I can’t say I was jumping out of bed everyday. I got into software because it was a good way to make money, but if you asked me why I went and became an engineer, I thought I was going to get a good job and make a good living. But at the age of 39 or 40, I really discovered a different path of looking inward and asking yourself and introspecting and what do I want out of life? If you remove all constraints and you ignore the fact that you have a wife, three kids, a mortgage and a lot of responsibility for a second – what do I want? The only true limited resource in the world that you have is time. It’s nothing else. People think it’s about money, it’s about fame and fortune. It’s not. It’s about doing what you want to do. This beautiful concept that I found in philosophy called the central purpose – how do you discover it? We spend so much time defining a company’s vision and mission, and we don’t think for a day about what is our own personal vision and mission? What is the one sentence that describes me in what I want to achieve in life? That’s a very hard process to do. Took me about a year and a half to figure out, to put in words what I am about, what Tal is about, what I want to achieve. That sentence, when I look at it everyday, I get excited. It’s like, “Yes, that’s what I want to do!” It was a very painful process. I had to let go of a lot of assumptions I’ve had about myself. It requires a lot of introspection. At the end of it I came out with a lot of clarity of what I wanted, so I decided to take a nonprofit organization and decided to write a children’s book, decided to focus on creating content and one of them was the seminar that I did that you saw, and focus on this process of discovering central purpose.
I think that’s, to connect that to the more professional aspect of it, I think leaders need to understand that when I say the word “philosophy” people think about Greek, old ancient Greek people in togas, right? But what philosophy is all about is understanding the principles that govern the human mind, and the relationship of the human mind with reality. That’s like the physics of everything. If you don’t understand how you work and how the world works and the relationship to your consciousness and the world, you’re going to make a lot of mistakes and you’re going to spend a lot of time not being happy. The one thing that I see, now that I reflect back on my career and I see other people around me, is that they don’t identify core principles, what is governing their environment. The reason why I started with values is because if somebody told me when I was 25 or 27, it’s about everyone around you is looking for specific values, you have to discover what they’re looking for, because we’re all seeking values in order to achieve them. The result of successfully pursuing your values is the state of happiness and self esteem that you gain from it. That’s what we’re all about. We’re all playing the same game. We’re trying to achieve values.
Now, the question is, are those rational values or not? That’s a very personal thing. But in order for you to understand your environment, you have to know what people around you are looking for. Let’s say if you take a sales person, you start with questioning the person across the table - what do you want? What are you looking for? You don’t come with your assumption that they want your product. That really plays to the psychology of all of us which is what are you really looking for? And if you have a lot of clarity of what you’re looking for, you’re going to succeed.
I’ll give you an example. Everybody thinks it’s okay to be promoted and manage more people. It’s not true. Some people are miserable when they’re leading a team and they’re very happy when they’re individual contributors. So when I talk to people, not just managers, people around me, what are your values? Discover them. It’s not innate in you. It’s not something that you just feel. I feel like I like it or not. Feelings are great indicators and evidence to what your consciousness is attracted to, but there’s just that. It’s just evidence. The true reason is something you have to go deeper and introspect – why you like what you like.
Now that I have this prism, now that I have those glasses, those philosophical glasses, everything is much clearer to me. I know that if I go back and manage another team, I’ll do it in a much more effective way. If you ask me about mistakes, it’s just not understanding what people are about and that’s, I think, what’s most important as a manager to identify.
Halelly: TalentGrowers know that I often ask my guests to help us concretize stuff and just make it super actionable. So, you describe a process that you went through personally and you said it took you a year and a half or something like this for introspection. That by itself sounds like, “What? For a year and a half?”
Tal: How do you do it?
Halelly: So how did you do it? Did you journal? Did you just sort of put on your toga and stare into the night sky? I mean – I’m being facetious – but what did you do?
Tal: Well, that sounds good, a toga and look.
Halelly: Just get a margarita and you’re set!
Tal: So, I call it the three good things method. What I mean by that is, it doesn’t matter if you want to do it on a daily basis or a weekly basis or want to do it more than that, but you sit down and write on paper, with a pen and paper – don’t type it into the computer because there’s something about writing it on paper that slows you down and calms you – and you write what was good about this week? What did I enjoy? Sometimes you come to that journaling process and know exactly what I want to talk about, or I have a problem that I want to clarify. It’s okay to not just write about three good things that happened and why, but also answer questions. Sometimes I would start with, “Why am I feeling anxious?” To give a concrete answer. I was journaling on almost a daily basis when I felt like I needed to clarify for myself what am I look for? What is the next thing I want to do with my life? I remember I had to make that decision to leave a big company and join a small company, and I was super anxious. I started writing and journaling, why am I anxious? The first thing that occurred to me, I don’t know what anxious means. What is that feeling that I’m feeling? Kind of the fear of the unknown, what is going to happen? I said what am I afraid of? What’s going to happen? I started writing and, okay, I’m not going to make the same salary that I’m making today and I might not be able to afford things. That’s a good reason to get concerned. Gave myself a lot of empathy. Then I relaxed a little bit. Then I answered myself rationally. I said, put some money aside and worst-case scenario you’ll go back to the company that you want to leave. They’ll take you back any day. There’s no real danger here, so why are you so afraid? It’s amazing in two or three weeks, the anxiety went away. It was really clear to me what I needed to do. There was no hesitation to leave that company and move to two people in a room with no salary which sounds really frightening.
Halelly: That’s what a start up is!
Tal: Exactly, but with a lot of introspection everything becomes clear. You learn to love yourself. You learn to value yourself. And you just unpack those feelings. Then you go back to that journal and you read and it’s so inspiring to see your thinking process evolve on paper. You just may be a much clearer thinker. The best outcome is you become a valuer of life. By that, I mean you know exactly what you love, you know exactly what you don’t like, and you try to surround yourself with the things you like and get away from the things and people you don’t like and the environments you don’t like. I can’t tell you how beneficial and rewarding it is. I know it sounds a little weird to do this self-psychoanalysis and introspection. I’m not talking about meditation. I’m not talking about relaxation. It’s hard work. You sit down and try to solve a riddle. Why am I feeling anxious or what do I do with that person, or how do I solve this problem? Or why did I like this deal so much?
I’ll give you another good example that really clicked for me. I closed a big deal for my startup, and I came back and was so excited about it and I wrote it down – why am I so excited about closing that deal? I realized that what was different about that deal was they told us, we saw the demo of your software and Microsoft’s software. Both great, you both qualified, you’re the finalists, but what will determine who we’re going to buy from is just a presentation of your vision of your company and your software and the others. I created a whole narrative. I wrote a story about a day in the life for that people’s salesperson if they use our software. They wake up in the morning, what do they do? It was a beautiful story. It was funny. It was exciting and it really covered all of the benefits of our software. And then the Microsoft guy just came in with a couple of slides and was really boring. And we won the deal. When I sat down, I thought it was the million dollars that we won, but it was not – it was my love for storytelling. It was my love for writing narratives. It was my love of being on stage and talking to people and affecting it. I said, “It’s not about the software. It’s about the narrative. That’s what I love. That’s where the arrow is pointing.” And that’s what you get out of introspection. Just uncover deeper layers of who you are and what you love about this world and I think that’s very important.
Halelly: That’s awesome. I want to talk to you for a lot longer and we don’t have a lot longer. But I want to ask you another question in a similar vane to the one I just did, because that was really helpful, the way that you gave those examples. You said as a leader, you have to help people connect to value. In the world of philosophy, you’d say you want to be a trader, right? The trader principle which means that in every relationship you have, you are always trading value for value in a way that is free. You are free to choose whether the value I offer to you is a value you seek and therefore in our interactions we’re always equals in a sense that whatever I value, I get from the interaction and whatever you value, you get from the interaction. And each of us thinks differently about what values are important. In the end, we can trade in a way that makes us both feel like winners. So, as a leader, to understand who each person is as an individual, do you have a way to quickly share with us how you did that or how you do that?
Tal: Well, I can start with the way I interview people. I have a very different way to interview people. I make it very personal and I go for what are you looking for? What are you trying to achieve? I can give you examples of, I was hiring a software engineer and they said, “You know, if you really insist, what I really want to do with my life is build bridges.” I asked him why and he said, “I’m just fascinated with bridges. I know every type of bridge in the world. I have books and books about bridges and how to build them.” At the end of the day, I didn’t hire him, but I convinced him to go switch professions and go back to university and learn how to build bridges. The reason why I really try to understand what’s motivating that person, everybody is a genius. At something. And in many cases, it’s not what they’re doing for you in that company. Maybe they’re on the path to something they really want and they see that as a step forward, which is a good thing. Maybe they’re really excited about being you in 20 years, right? Which is a good thing. But in many cases, I don’t hire people that are very – like their resumes – amazing, because their passion lies somewhere else. It’s inevitable. Like a collision course. They’re going to crash into something. So I try to really get to the bottom of what they are about, what they’re trying to achieve, what’s important to them, what do they do, what are their hobbies, how do they spend their time when they don’t have constraints? I do that and that’s how, again, I said something about respecting the sovereignty of everyone on their own mind, and I really respect everyone’s sovereignty on their own mind. I really try to understand what they are about.
You don’t really manage people. They manage themselves. You try to give them the environment to manage themselves very effectively, because they know what they’re doing, why they are doing what they’re doing, and they’re passionate about it. You talked about a voluntary environment that is respectful of who you are and your free will, and that’s, I think, what is the essence of a great culture that you can create. I learned a lot, by the way, in Silicon Valley, because it is what you learn there. It’s just you feel free to do, to experiment. Google gives you time and money to experiment with things you want to do. It’s such a great idea. We use, at my company Base CRM, you try to give a budget. You take $100 a month, you do whatever you want with it. It has to be work-related. And people say, “What? What would I do with it?” I don’t know, you figure it out. And people did amazing things with it. They improved our software. They found a way to embed new ideas and new equipment and people would share their experiences. Just let people drive themselves to wherever they want to drive themselves and give them a playground that is free for them to play in. They will create amazing things. That’s the way I look at it. And every employee, every person I work with, I see a genius. Now, the question is, can you help them discover the genius in them and what they want to achieve?
Halelly: I love that. And also, recognizing that sometimes this is not the place for that kind of genius. It’s not like everybody is welcome to do whatever they want here. I hear in your story that while you honor and respect and appreciate every person’s genius, also as a leader, what you’re looking for is that match, that value exchange that creates a win-win trade.
Tal: Right. And let me be clear. I’m ruthless when it comes to people that are just not in the right environment. I say, “Look, you’re not going to work here anymore and I think it’s going to be good for you. And here’s what I see, the reason why you’re not compatible to this environment, is either you’re looking for other things or you have issues,” and I would always have long discussions. People are very afraid from that very tough discussion of letting someone go. I see it as an opportunity to give someone something very meaningful. It’s like there is a reason why I think you shouldn’t be working here. Of course, assuming it’s not because you’re closing the company or something, but I always pride myself with the fact that people I let go always, most of them are in contact with me. They call back and thank me for the advice I gave them, and the direction. I say, “You shouldn’t be in this business. You should be doing something completely different.” And this is because, again, people don’t introspect and ask themselves fundamental questions. Do I work in an environment with a lot of people that is very dynamic, or I want to be left alone? Some people really love the process of self-creation, and then they put themselves in the wrong environment and they suffer psychologically, and it comes out in all kinds of weird behaviors and politics and things like that. If you really understand, again, what we’re all trying to achieve, you can see through that and work with someone.
I move people around from the weirdest thing. Like in this specific organization I manage right now, I took someone that managed a program, like a program manager, and now he’s a data analyst. Completely different because it was very easy for me to see he’s attracted to working with numbers and Excel files. He just lights up when we’re talking about numbers. “Why don’t you do more of this? I’ll throw out some other things from other departments at you and let’s see what you do with it.” Before you know it, he’s an amazing data analyst. This is kind of the approach I take toward that.
Halelly: I love it. Excellent. Thank you so much for sharing that. Before we share that one really short, specific action that we always do at the end, what’s new and exciting on your horizon Tal?
Tal: If you don’t tell anyone –
Halelly: We’ll keep it a secret!
Tal: I’m thinking of maybe kind of launching a project of building a museum. That’s what’s exciting on my horizon.
Halelly: Wow. No small feat, building a museum. Okay. Well, I look forward to hearing more about it and let me know if I can help. I don’t know anything about building museums, but it sounds exciting. So what’s one specific action that listeners can take today, tomorrow, this week, to upgrade their own ability to lead themselves or lead others? Whichever way you want to take it.
Tal: Buy a notebook. Buy a pen. Sit down on Friday night, take your quiet hour, and write the question, “What is important to me?” Then start writing. Let your subconscious flow on paper and see what comes out. That will be the first step in an amazing journey of self discovery that I think is missing in our culture. And that will lead you to insights of how you can be better and by just understanding who you are and what are the values that are important to you and it will make you a better person and a better leader and a more authentic leader.
Halelly: Amen to that. So, I think people are going to want to learn more from you and about you. What are some of the best places for them to do so on the web, on social?
Tal: First, I wrote a little book I think is great to know who I am. It’s called Sophie. People can buy it on Amazon. I mainly use Facebook. I’ve got a page that I share my insights, TalTsfany, and that’s basically it.
Halelly: Okay. Well, we will link to that in the show notes and hopefully people can get in touch with you, say hi, let Tal know you heard him on the TalentGrow Show. Tal, I really appreciate you spending some time with us, thank you.
Tal: it was a pleasure. Thanks Halelly.
Halelly: All right TalentGrowers. I hope that you got value from this episode and that you found it interesting. I wanted to talk to Tal for so much longer and we probably will bring him back because there’s a lot more he can share about leadership and a little more of the tactical stuff too. I want to hear what you thought and let me know. I always value your input and your feedback. There’s a way you can leave me a voicemail message right on my website, TalentGrow.com. There’s a little black tab, whatever device you’re using – your computer, phone, iPad – and that’s a great way for you to let me know your thoughts or ask me a question. And if your audio is good enough and you give me permission, I can even use that on a future episode of the TalentGrow Show. And, let me know what you want to hear about next, because that is top of mind for me.
I really appreciate that you took the time to listen to the TalentGrow Show today. I’m Halelly Azulay, your leadership development strategist here at TalentGrow, and until the next time, make today great.
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Intro/outro music: "Why-Y" by Esta
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